Cersei - feminist character, or not?

[Theda Baratheon]

Most men in Westeros don't have that choice anyway

Yes, they do actually. Most men in Westeros definitely have this choice. Could you please name some examples of men that can't choose to be a hedgeknight, or fight the black, or for nobles; to train to be a solder ect ect. Yes, there is the case of arranged marriages, but men aren't as bound to these marriages as women, they can go and fuck who they want and they can go and fight if they wanted to. A woman cant. And i'm not complaining about that seeing as this is a medieval esque fantasy.

But the quote I was replying to was stating quite clearly than most women would rather just be married and have kids than to have the choice to fight if they wanted to.

[Kittykatknits]

The women make the choice to marry that man, therefore they should keep up their end of the bargain. You can say the choice is heavily stacked, as in it's marry or die, but tis still a choice.

Marriage or death doesn't strike me as a choice.

What is the fascination with imposing modern feminist views on a quasi-medieval society. It took many century for women to achieve the basic right and even now is only available to women of a few countries. Our society to day is still heavily patriarchic as are most of the societies of the world. I still feel a deep lack of information on Cerseis early marriage to Robert. In this world the higher the nobles birth the more rights are taken and the more is expected.

THIS IS NO THE MODERN WORLD. How many noble man or women make the choices for marriage.

Recommend go to wiki and read up on early European kings and queens in the middle and late medieval period.

You are abosolutely correct! This is not a modern world, it's a world that is completely made up and is all the result of Martin's imagination. If he wanted to, aliens could land in Westeros and take over and it'd still be historically accurate - because it's not real. It's a fantasy series, not an historical work.

So, we can look at this however we want.

Most men in Westeros don't have that choice anyway

If you want to discuss how awful it is for men in Westeros, feel free. In a different thread. No one is claiming that it doesn't suck for men.

[Castel]

I was trying to isolate the issue of reproductive rights-- to separate that from the notion of social contract of marriage, in order to highlight the unique violation of woman's rights that this power structure inherently puts on women from a different angle (I was writing in response to the posts that found "women's rights" to be a subject that shouldn't be discussed separate from overall oppression in Westeros).

...

I think that the sneaking around and fraudulent aspect of this compromises the positiveness of Cersei's exercising reproductive freedom. Had she chosen to reject the patriarchy (and not just exercise her personal reproductive freedom), she could have openly rebelled against Robert (instead, it was a subtle, sneaky usurpation of what he "earned"). I just thought it was productive to disaggregate the issue of reproductive choice from the rest of the incest debacle for the purposes of the thread.

Fair enough.

Would we cheer Ned on so easily if it was Tommen and his kittens that he sought to replace with the (at this point) unknown Stannis?

*shrugs* Probably not. From a strictly utilitarian position Joffrey may have even ended up being the lesser evil, let alone Tommen. Hard to believe, but the situation was insane, and very unlikely.

So, Ned learns the truth about her children - Robert is not the father. Essentially, a person's genes are more important than competence or capability.

Welcome to all of human history.

The issue of fraud is a secondary ramification of this ownership on Cersei's part, and not one I agree with.

I know that you didn't want to go down this road but could you elaborate? I mean, even if Cersei is entitled to some of Robert's fortune for the alliance she brought, surely she does not get to decide to take all of it? Or is the situation so unjust that Cersei can be forgiven for acting in a manner that ruffles modern sensibilities?EDIT: Or does an implicit expectation not count?

[Winter's Knight]

@ Bumps and Kitts.

Cersei picking the father of her children highlights-in my eyes anyway-just how fragile the system is and how thoroughly dependent on women "taking it", so to speak. It shows how it takes just one unsatisfied or angry woman to bring the whole realm to war.

[Kolantero]

Yes, they do actually. Most men in Westeros definitely have this choice. Could you please name some examples of men that can't choose to be a hedgeknight, or fight the black, or for nobles; to train to be a solder ect ect.

It's the other way around: Men are forced to fight and they are not given a choice. Unless a Maester, a Septon or invalid, every man can (and probably will) be conscripted to the army against his will. Sure, its good for those people who want a military career (hedgeknight) but realistically it would suck for most men. Regardless of whether i would be a peasant or a lord, I certainly wouldn't want to go and get myself killed because Lord X pissed off Lord Z

Plus, a woman can also go around being a knight provided that she has the skills, e.g. Brienne (even though she will face more difficulties due prejudice)

I don't doubt that ASOIAF world is generally more unfair towards women but if there is one thing that men are getting screwed over, its wars and fighting

Yes, there is the case of arranged marriages, but men aren't as bound to these marriages as women, they can go and fuck who they want and they can go and fight if they wanted to. A woman cant. And i'm not complaining about that seeing as this is a medieval esque fantasy.

I don't disagree with that, my comment was on the "choice to marry" only part. The ratio of men forced to women is also very high (even though it is lower than women) since we see many examples of liege lords forcing male members of the family to marry. There can only be one liege lord in a family but at the same time there might be 3-5-10-20 (if we are talking about extended families) other males.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

I think if a woman is good at swordfighting she can get a job somewhere in somebody's army.

I also think she has to be amazing like Brienne, if she is good as the average man that probably wouldnt be good enough. She would have to be elite to discredit the women cant fight stereotype. But there are still choices. I think theres more from Arya and "Ary". Like what reasons did Yoren make her pretend to be a boy. and what advantages she got from it.

She has lived as a noble girl, a common boy, common girl, common girl on a different continent.

A lot of Cersei's stuff is complaints about things that we dont witness. She could be heavily exaggerating for all we know.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Yes, they do actually. Most men in Westeros definitely have this choice. Could you please name some examples of men that can't choose to be a hedgeknight, or fight the black, or for nobles; to train to be a solder ect ect.

I think this is an oversimplification. I don't want to turn this into another who has it shittier in westeros thread(the result of the last one was pretty clear) but any woman can choose to be a silent sister, or a septa and free herself of any marriage obligations.

[LordBloodraven]

GenChat feels like being Davos at Stannis' war councils, with the GenChatters being the other lords.

Nice metaphor, straight to the point. I lurk there but seldom post. "I'm but a smuggler" :dunno:

That's the challenge with Cersei. To be frank, and to put this very mildly, I'm not a fan of hers. She does elaborate and best explain what happens in Westeros. So, the question is how much, how., and to what degree? Is this just her bitterness talking or does she have some valid points that are worthy of exploring? I think this is what the OP has been getting towards.

Cersei has some valid points for sure. We might say that she's a product of her environment but there's something incredibly reckless in Cersei's tempearament that drive all her actions to excess and provocation.

In the Sansa "Pawn to Player" threads and currently the Arya reread there is quite a lot of focus on the feminist analysis as with Cersei in this thread.

Sansa, like Cersei, bought into the system at first, but she is as of AFFC seeing a how it has affected her negatively and seems relieved in that her role as a bastard has removed some of the pressure on her as a claim first and a person second. With all the scrambling and political moving to "bag" her in a wedding, she realised the dehumanising effects of female heiresses who are only a face with a huge dowry attached, and the dowry is the important bit. Sansa's own person was totally irrelevant, the only things that were wanted was her claim to Winterfell and her capability to produce heirs.

Cersei is marvelously hypocritical. It can make her a difficult character to deal with, in some ways. And I know criticism has been levelled by some readers in the past who think that GRRM missed an opportunity to create an interesting feminist statement with Cersei as a morally grey woman with power and agency, but that her decent into total villainy made her more stereotypical and less interesting in that regard.

While I can see where this is coming from, I think it's still possible to on the one hand appreciate that Cersei is a morally rotten character and she does some really repugnant things, but to on the other hand appreciate that she is not only a perpetrator, but also a victim. So in that, she plays both roles. Other characters like Theon and Tyrion have similar dynamics, in that they are both victims and perpetrators, and we as readers have to see both sides.

I agree entirely with this. Although I have a hard time forgiving Cersei for some of her ridiculous actions

[mcb]

Yes, they do actually. Most men in Westeros definitely have this choice. Could you please name some examples of men that can't choose to be a hedgeknight, or fight the black, or for nobles; to train to be a solder ect ect. Yes, there is the case of arranged marriages, but men aren't as bound to these marriages as women, they can go and fuck who they want and they can go and fight if they wanted to. A woman cant. And i'm not complaining about that seeing as this is a medieval esque fantasy.

But that isn't an argument against arranged marriage specifically, it's against marriage, period. If a woman married for love and too late found herself trapped with an asshole, she'd be just as screwed as if the marriage had been arranged by their parents. It's not the "arranged" factor that puts women at disadvantage; that "lord husband" thing does.

[Castel]

That's the challenge with Cersei. To be frank, and to put this very mildly, I'm not a fan of hers. She does elaborate and best explain what happens in Westeros. So, the question is how much, how., and to what degree? Is this just her bitterness talking or does she have some valid points that are worthy of exploring? I think this is what the OP has been getting towards.

Why is it one or the other? Cersei's criticisms are completely divorced from her actions,or we should judge them that way.

[Kittykatknits]

Fair enough.

*shrugs* Probably not. From a strictly utilitarian position Joffrey may have even ended up being the lesser evil, let alone Tommen. Hard to believe, but the situation was insane, and very unlikely.

I'm not sure I'm following you here, can you explain a bit more?

@ Bumps and Kitts.

Cersei picking the father of her children highlights-in my eyes anyway-just how fragile the system is and how thoroughly dependent on women "taking it", so to speak. It shows how it takes just one unsatisfied or angry woman to bring the whole realm to war.

Exactly. I've got some other thoughts on those floating in my head but alas, I need to take a break and make some cupcakes.

I think if a woman is good at swordfighting she can get a job somewhere in somebody's army.

Indeed, and we had an example of that with Pretty Maris. That turned out well for her.

[Castel]

I'm not sure I'm following you here, can you explain a bit more?

Without war Joff might have killed less people than a war would have. Or he might have destabilized the realm less.

[Theda Baratheon]

OK guys; that's fair.

[Winter's Knight]

Indeed, and we had an example of that with Pretty Maris. That turned out well for her.

Danny Flint's another.

[Lyanna Stark]

Most men in Westeros don't have that choice anyway

Well, lets examine men's career choices then, for a comparison. If we assume that men then makes a choice to avoid an arranged marriage and find an alternate career, which was the original point discussed.

Men can become:

Sellswords

Join other lords as part of their retinue of knights/men at arms

Septons (including High Septon)

Maesters

singers (we have seen no female singers in Westeros)

join the Nights Watch

Women can become:

Septas (but not High Septon)

Silent Sisters

Prostitutes

There are obviously things like "Innkeeper" which anyone can become, but this was mainly pointing out the paths of the nobility or thereabouts as that was what the original question was about.

I don't disagree with that, my comment was on the "choice to marry" only part. The ratio of men forced to women is also very high (even though it is lower than women) since we see many examples of liege lords forcing male members of the family to marry. There can only be one liege lord in a family but at the same time there might be 3-5-10-20 (if we are talking about extended families) other males.

As we see with Stannis and Selyse though Stannis is unhappy in his marriage, but he uses his power as a man and a lord to just avoid his wife and to also avoid having to share a bed with her. (Instead he shares a bed with Melisandre.)

A woman in the same situation does not have that possibility, hence why Cersei had to submit to marital rape and why she constantly tried to avoid Robert having sex with her against her will.

[Ducks in a Field]

Well, lets examine men's career choices then, for a comparison. If we assume that men then makes a choice to avoid an arranged marriage and find an alternate career, which was the original point discussed.

Men can become:

Sellswords

Join other lords as part of their retinue of knights/men at arms

Septons (including High Septon)

Maesters

singers (we have seen no female singers in Westeros)

join the Nights Watch

Women can become:

Septas (but not High Septon)

Silent Sisters

Prostitutes

Both can also become innkeepers, farmers or other smallfolk occupations. Men can become prostitutes too if so inclined. This only re-enforces the original point though - Men have more choices.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Personally, Cersei is a good example of what happens when women are not treated equally. I consider Catelyn to be a maternal feminist. And in that way I think that Catelyn is more of a 'feminist' than Cersei is.

[Lyanna Stark]

Both can also become innkeepers, farmers or other smallfolk occupations. Men can become prostitutes too if so inclined. This only re-enforces the original point though - Men have more choices.

True, men can become prostitutes as evidenced by the male prostitute who tried to steal from Whoresbane Umber, but generally it's probably somewhat more unusual, and in any case, hardly a career choice someone of noble upbringing would really consider, male or female.

While you posted I also edited the original to include things like Innkeeper, etc. Women can most likely also be merchants, working with crafting, bakers, etc. but then that is more the realm of the smallfolk anyway.

[Arkantos]

Marriage or death doesn't strike me as a choice.

I see it as the same as taking the black or death. Anyway, I was exaggerating, most lords wouldn't kill their daughters for refusing to marry, but they would be punished.

[Ducks in a Field]

True, men can become prostitutes as evidenced by the male prostitute who tried to steal from Whoresbane Umber, but generally it's probably somewhat more unusual, and in any case, hardly a career choice someone of noble upbringing would really consider, male or female.

While you posted I also edited the original to include things like Innkeeper, etc. Women can most likely also be merchants, working with crafting, bakers, etc. but then that is more the realm of the smallfolk anyway.

This is true