Cersei - feminist character, or not?

[Newstar]

Sorry if this is off topic, but what's your take on the QoT seemingly being able to live outside of the patriarchal confines of such a society? Is it just because she's old or widowed?

Well, did Olenna really "escape"? She got away from an unwanted marriage to a Targaryen prince, but she doesn't seem to have escaped marriage and motherhood altogether, as that wasn't open to her (someone made the point on another thread that Westeros women who don't want to marry who don't live in Dorne or on Mormont Island have very limited options, i.e. becoming a septa or a Silent Sister, and highborn Westeros women have even fewer options outside marriage, what with their valuable role as political capital). She does seem to have married a buffoon (who rode off a cliff because he wasn't paying attention...makes me think of modern accidents when people are walking and texting!), and without reading too much into it, maybe she agreed to marry someone stupid so that she could have an ability to maneuver that she might not otherwise have. I find it hard to believe that otherwise she would willingly marry someone she described as "an appalling oaf," despite his other apparent good qualities (kind, good in bed).

It might be that as an unmarriageable woman (old widow) from a wealthy noble house whose days of being married off and popping out babies are over, she enjoys a bit of limited freedom to do what she wants and shoot from the hip. However, she remains unable to assume command of the house openly; she has to maneuver from behind the scenes. And as a woman, any limited power and privilege she enjoys is by the grace of the male head of the house (Mace, I guess).

I bring it up because she's seemingly more powerful than her Lord son (not outwardly), and her attitude towards men seems more to control and outwit them than to complain and take drastic actions. Or is her subtlety and scheming actually more telling of the perception of women because she dares not outwardly display her power?

I'd say murdering Joffrey (which the World of Ice and Fire app has revealed was Olenna's doing, in case anyone had any doubts about that) was pretty drastic. Leaving that aside, though, there are a lot of interesting parallels between House Tyrell and House Lannister, particularly with respect to the younger generation (Loras/Jaime, Cersei/Margaery, etc. etc.). House Lannister had a very competent, intelligent strategist who was also the patriarch holding all the real power: it's just that he also happened to be a horrible parent and a terrible human being, which contributed not only to his own death but also to the ongoing collapse of his house. House Tyrell has a competent, intelligent strategist and a patriarch holding all the real power: unfortunately, these are not the same person. I think the fact that Olenna can't run things directly, that she has to go through and/or tiptoe around Mace Tyrell, her buffoonish son, will cause big problems for House Tyrell down the line, problems they might not have if Olenna could run things herself without having to sneak around her son and play the part of an obnoxious, unthreatening old widow.

[Naathi Prince]

Unless the son is not so happy about being "allowed" to get combat training. Like Sam, where his gender role is forced upon him, when Tarly "allowed" Sam to try to be a great warrior.

Its not a gender role, it a societal role. A lord who cannot fight is no Lord. Tarly should have let sam join the citadel but he was right to make sure Sam did not inherit his land.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Its not a gender role, it a societal role. A lord who cannot fight is no Lord. Tarly should have let sam join the citadel but he was right to make sure Sam did not inherit his land.

Then we can assume that Talla Tarly was awesome at swordfighting or she was sent off to be a septa or silent sisters?

[Naathi Prince]

Then we can assume that Talla Tarly was awesome at swordfighting or she was sent off to be a septa or silent sisters?

Not all boys have to be Lords. You can call it a birth order discrimination as much as you can a male discrimination.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Not all boys have to be Lords. You can call it a birth order discrimination as much as you can a male discrimination.

I dont think it would change anything if Sam was born after Talla

[Naathi Prince]

I dont think it would change anything if Sam was born after Talla

depends on the family.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

depends on the family.

As do a majority of the male/female sexism issues in Westeros.

If Cersei was a Stark, Greyjoy, Tarth, Martell, or Mormont possibly she would have gotten to play with swords.

[Winter's Knight]

As do a majority of the male/female sexism issues in Westeros.

If Cersei was a Stark, Greyjoy, Tarth, Martell, or Mormont possibly she would have gotten to play with swords.

No she wouldn't-Balon and Ned are exceptions in their families. Rickard would not allow Lyanna a sword .

[Sevumar]

Cersei's complaints are feminist in nature, but her remedies are all pure selfishness. So no, Cersei is not acting out of feminism, although feminists would share her views about the fundamental unfairness of Westerosi societal attitudes toward women. Her actions only seek to advance her own position, even to the detriment of other women whom she sends for torture and murder without any sense of remorse. Cersei was briefly in a position to use her influence to make Westeros a better place for women and she refused to do so.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

No she wouldn't-Balon and Ned are exceptions in their families. Rickard would not allow Lyanna a sword .

We can really only say about Rickard and Ned, and hearsay about Rickard.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Cersei doesn't fight for women's rights. To think so is ridiculous. She fights for her own extra privileges which she considers rights.

[Winter's Knight]

We can really only say about Rickard and Ned, and hearsay about Rickard.

It's not hearsay

“Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”

[Lion of Judah]

I made the argument in another thread that Cersei has a lot of potential and the idea was strongly neglected by some. But the point I was trying to make ultimately is that Cersei is engulfed in a feminist struggle, but not by choice. Her actions aren't considerate to the greater good of women's causes/struggles in Westeros, they only consider her greater good and betterment. In a way she seems to reason at times with the idea that women are weak or inferior and she makes statements like she was Tywin's true heir and son. She never embraces being a woman, she embraces the thought of redefining her status and her position.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

It's not hearsay

Yes it is.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Yes, I agree. I sometimes think the idea of whether Cersei is a feminist or a feminist character get conflated. Cersei is a feminist character for all the reasons outlined in LS's great OP. That does not make her a feminist though. She's a misogynist who would rather assume the role of the patriarch.

:agree: If Cersei was a true feminist, she would want all women to be empowered. But she only wants herself to hold all the power.

[Winter's Knight]

Yes it is.

Did you read the text I quoted or do you just delight in disrupting discussion?

[Daario's*before*Snows]

ike it did for Ned

[Daario's*before*Snows]

All the quote is saying is she might have done it if allowed.

He doesnt even say she tried. Who knows how hard Lyanna tried.

Arya didnt bother asking permission.

Ned may very well have said no if she asked first, we dont know.

[Kolantero]

- I really can't see any value into Cercei's comments towards understanding the feminism struggle in the ASOIAF universe. (Most of) what she is saying/complaining about might sound revolutionary in the ASOIAF context but they are pretty much common sense for a 21st century reader. She doesn't really say anything that most readers wouldn't infer just from reading the books once or twice in normal pace without analyzing them or even from just the rest of the chapters. In fact precisely because things are told by Cercei who is known for paranoia and amazingly stupid "conclusions" we cannot take them as granted unless they are "confirmed" from other characters/chapters as well (most of them are indeed confirmed)

- Ofcourse i disagree with the "100% product of her society". Everyone has even a little bit of personal responsibility, unless we generalize it to include everything (non-gender related issues as well) in which case everyone is 100% product of their societies and the whole thing is meaningless.

- Cercei is absolutely not used as a mouthpiece for gender issues although she can be perceived as one (with valid reasons even though i disagree). The former implies author intend while the latter just how readers analyze the text. I really doubt that GRRM used Cercei with the explicit purpose of expressing feminist worries, which is the implication from the way it is written in the OP although that might be accidental ("Cercei is used as a mouthpiece" instead of "Cercei can be seen as a mouthpiece")

- Ultimately Cercei's character is fully realistic. She is a person who will blame her own incompetence and failures on anything but herself and will try to find excuses elsewhere. This is a very common thing i believe in real life as well. Excuses for personal failure can be both true or false and in Cercei's case they happen to be true (at least mostly). Still doesn't change the fact that she had way more privileges than 95% of people in Westeros and that she managed to screw things up worse than any other character at the time she had some power.

[RoamingRonin]

I don't think Cersei is a feminist character. I look at her relationships with other women particulary Marg, Taena and Sansa as evidence. The only woman she cares about is herself.