Jons Parentage Revealed

[JonisHenryTudor]

Interesting topic, I was just thinking about this the other day during a re-read. I'm definitely leaning towards believing that Benjen Stark knew/knows of Jon's parentage. Not because of any one decisive line or indication, but because Benjen is the only person who both 1) deserved to know and 2) could be trusted to be told. Lyanna demanding that Ned promise to keep Jon's parentage a secret "in general" is one thing -- to make him keep it a secret from their completely trustworthy (and also-heart-broken) brother is quite another.

All I have to say to this, and as a first timer here, is:

Benjen - "...Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

Jon - "I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

B - "You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

The context I believe is RH. With Mole town close by, and Benjen is aware of it, 'knowing a woman' isn't likely the issue here, and the progression of the conversation is too serious. When I first came to the R+L=J theory, this scene quickly snapped into my head. I believe Benjen knows, but whether that matters or not is hard to tell if Benjen never shows again or is not standing in front of a WW.

[Melisandre's Shadow]

wrong qoute my bad, this post should just be deleted

^This would make me splooj everywhere. Quaithe is arguable the most badass character in the books and definitely the most mysterious.

[Melisandre's Shadow]

I think the readers of the book will find out Jon's parentage before Jon does. Probably from Quaithe to Dany.

This was what I meant to quote

[Reek rythmes with sneak]

I think that either Melisandre is going to see Jons parents in flame or Quiathe telling Dany that she has a nephew

[Mayura]

About Jon's parentage, I think it all makes perfectly sense that L+R = J.

The King's Guard guarding Lyanna at the Tower of Joy after Rhaegar and his descendants we know off (Rhaenys/Aegon) got killed undoubtedly means there was a King to guard in that Tower or they would have left in a heartbeat to join Viserys. As for Ned's torment: the promise he made to his sister was to keep her son alive knowing that he was Rhaegar's heir and therefore could be a direct threat to his friend Robert's claim on the throne. So as well as maintaining a possible heir to the Targ line, Ned had the mission to hide the babe from Robert because the new King would have crushed R+L's son in a heartbeat. This is why Jon joining the NW was a sort of "relief" for Ned, he never really tried to stop Jon from doing that, all titles and claims are forgotten when a brother says his vows and therefore the NW was the best shield there ever was for Jon. Similarly to Maester Aemon, should anyone discover Jon's parentage, his vows would keep him away from the throne, and thus from trouble.

But to be clear, I think several characters who are still alive ought to know who Jon's parents are if this particular plot point has to play a role in the book. So, indeed, we readers will probably know who his parents are through a vision (tbh I always assumed Rhaegar and Lyanna got "married" in front of a weirwood or that at least Ned and/or Lyanna would confess to a tree allowing Bran/the old gods to know the truth).

But in fact, if we learn the truth from Bran, good for us, but the word of a little greenseer cripple boy would probably not have much weight if we assume that at some point Jon's origins will play a role in the serie. We already know that Howland Reed knows, and it seems to me that his kids know as well, the way Meera is telling Bran about the KOLT stories and other stories about the wolf-maid. But again, Howland Reed and his kids claiming Jon is Rhaegar's heir would certainly not be enough for the rest of Westeros to believe he really is.

So if his parentage has to be revealed in the serie and somehow made believable for other characters, we need other direct witnesses than Howland Reed/Visions (whether greendreams or Mel's fires).

• However, I don't think Benjen knew, it has never been hinted in the serie that he did suspect Jon wasn't Ned's son. And I don't think Ned would have told him Jon was Lyanna's son, even if he was their brother. Otherwise, following the logic of Ned revealing the secret to people he trusted and who deserved to know, I think he would have given the word to Catelyn. Instead, he chose to protect Jon and to accept to appear like a cheating husband as well as to have Jon being treated like hell by Cat. This is why I think Benjen didn't know either, I guess Ned thought very justly so that the least people who knew about Jon, the better. And taking the risk that anyone close to Ned could have acted like Jon wasn't Ned's bastard could have given all of the trick away.
  
• I don't think Varys knows anything about this. He hasn't showed Jon any interest and he clearly scheming to bring Aegon back on the Throne. I think that if he suspected at least "something" about Jon, we wouldat least have a tiny clue by now and,unless I have missed something, none of my re-reads showed me that Varys could have suspected anything about Jon. However, it is true that he is the Master of Whispers and that he was very much active under Aerys as well, I fail to see why he would ignore Lyanna/Rhaegar's story. But he somehow never has showed any interest (yet?) for this story. Maybe it is also because he is supporting Aegon's claim and therefore has no need for Jon at the present time.
  
• Furthermore, this is precisely why I think someone like Ashara Dayne has to be alive. She was Arthur Dayne's sister and I think she had to know something about the pregnancy. I think at the moment she is supporting Aegon's claim but she could very well reveal Jon's real identity should Aegon prover to be fake
  

Sorry for that weird "theory",I just always though that, yes, it would be easy for the readers to know about Jon's parentage through a vision/a dream/a word of Howland reed or his kids. But then, I also think Jon's story which has been protected by Ned for so long certainly has a major role to play in the main story. And for this to be the case, it is a certainty we need direct strong witnesses to claim Jon is who he really is.

However, it is very true we don't really *need* Jon's parentage to play a big role in the books and his parentage could very wellbe revealed in a passing way while he proves his true value by doing heroic actions like, why not, riding a dragon or defeating the Others. But I would really then fail to see why GRRM hasn't already revealed L+R's story five books into his serie if the outcome of it doesn't have any big influence on the main storyline.

*voilà, sorry for making such a long crazy post*

PS: of course it only works for those who believe L+R=J, but I really don't see why GRRM would make a whole mystery about linking Ned/the promise/L+R/Jon if it wasn't the case.

[messem]

About Jon's parentage, I think it all makes perfectly sense that L+R = J.

The King's Guard guarding Lyanna at the Tower of Joy after Rhaegar and his descendants we know off (Rhaenys/Aegon) got killed undoubtedly means there was a King to guard in that Tower or they would have left in a heartbeat to join Viserys.

First of all. I also think R+L=J makes the most sense. But I'm just re-reading AGoT and stumbled about a revealing (?) thought of Ned riding back from the brothel where he visited Robert's bastard daughter. Thinking about (the king's) bastards.

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

By that quote alone it appears that Jon is Ned's bastard son. Or at least a bastard who looks similar to him. So, mmm

However, I don't think Benjen knew, it has never been hinted in the serie that he did suspect Jon wasn't Ned's son. And I don't think Ned would have told him Jon was Lyanna's son, even if he was their brother. Otherwise, following the logic of Ned revealing the secret to people he trusted and who deserved to know, I think he would have given the word to Catelyn. Instead, he chose to protect Jon and to accept to appear like a cheating husband as well as to have Jon being treated like hell by Cat. This is why I think Benjen didn't know either, I guess Ned thought very justly so that the least people who knew about Jon, the better. And taking the risk that anyone close to Ned could have acted like Jon wasn't Ned's bastard could have given all of the trick away.

You are missing the most obvious point. Ned was returning from the war to a wife he scarcely knew. IF there was somebody he told about it HAD to be another Stark. Or Jon Arryn. :cool4:

[Mayura]

First of all. I also think R+L=J makes the most sense. But I'm just re-reading AGoT and stumbled about a revealing (?) thought of Ned riding back from the brothel where he visited Robert's bastard daughter. Thinking about (the king's) bastards.

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

By that quote alone it appears that Jon is Ned's bastard son. Or at least a bastard who looks similar to him. So, mmm

Yes, I indeed had the same thought when I re-read AGoT, but I thought Ned was thinking of bastards in general after visiting the brothel. The fact he is seeing Jon is in fact troubling, but I've always thought it was because, for the rest of the wolrd,Jon is his bastard and therefore,Ned has been "treated" as a man who has a bastard. He raised Jon as his bastard for so long as well and he has been through a lot because of his "bastard". So I assume Ned has experienced the reality of it and he doesn't fail to think about it.

There are too many indications in the books that lead me to be 99.9% sure he is not Ned's son. Of course you know what I mean as you also believe L+R=J, so this is why I thought Ned thinking about Jon at that specific moment was just in relation with the fact he actually lived the experience of being a "bastard's dad".

You are missing the most obvious point. Ned was returning from the war to a wife he scarcely knew. IF there was somebody he told about it HAD to be another Stark. Or Jon Arryn. :cool4:

Again, I completely agree :) I was thinking: after many years with Cat, he could have revealed Jon's true origins to make life easier for everyone. But I guess the less people knew, the better. That is also why I think Benjen didn't know, he would maybe have acted in a different way towards Jon which would have given away the whole thing. I really think Ned kept the secret to his own and that we cannot really count on him to have revealed Jon's parentage to anyone else than Howland Reed (who was there anyway) and maybe other people (like Ashara) by necessity (I always wondered how nobody wondered about what was going on in the Tower of Joy... Knowing about the Dornish's acceptance of paramours and the fact Elia couldn't have had another baby, I don't think Rhaegar had to hide Lyanna's condition to everyone around there, but yet it seems like nobody knows.)

[The Bastard of Walton]

Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Arthur Dayne & Ser Oswell Whent are the proof to me anyway, that Jon was Rhaegar & Lyanna's child & that he was for a brief while King.

[mrlukeduke]

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

By that quote alone it appears that Jon is Ned's bastard son. Or at least a bastard who looks similar to him. So, mmm

I disagree. I think it's just the guilt Ned feels for Jon having to live the life of a bastard in a world where they're shunned, just because Ned hasn't told him the truth.

[The Bastard of Walton]

I disagree. I think it's just the guilt Ned feels for Jon having to live the life of a bastard in a world where they're shunned, just because Ned hasn't told him the truth.

I agree with THIS 100%

[aryagonnakill]

Benjen - "...Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

Jon - "I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

B - "You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

My problem with assuming this means he is referring to giving up the crown is that at this point Roberts thrown was as secure as ever. In all likelihood Jon would never have actually been giving up the thrown, just women, who Jon had in fact not experienced.

[JonisHenryTudor]

My problem with assuming this means he is referring to giving up the crown is that at this point Roberts thrown was as secure as ever. In all likelihood Jon would never have actually been giving up the thrown, just women, who Jon had in fact not experienced.

Yes you are right, and Benjen could be thinking that as well. But again with mole town so close by..... Family is much different than a brothel, and perhaps Benjen was referring to having a family. But this early in the story I think Martin wanted to create as much of a facade as possible. The conversation just seems a bit too serious to me though. I still think Bran is going to be the key to Jon finding out. As much as I would like to have a HR pov, we may not need to have a living person to find out the truth....but there is the burden of proof which seems to be an entirely different matter of its own.

[Freedman49]

New contributor here really enjoying the forum's. I'm hoping that the r + l = j assumption is right as I like Jon's character a lot and that's a good reason for him to survive or be revived after his stabbing. Seems to me GRRM goes to a lot of effort to put red herrings in there around Jon's parentage, i.e. Ashara Dayne, Wylla the wet nurse, the fisherman's daughter and visions of Jon when Ned thinks of bastard's. This and Ned's promise to Lyanna leads me to think r + l = j is the way to go. Also think they were probably married so Jon's legit. I think Benjin probably knows, Ned could have told him as Lyanna was his sister as well. Possibly a reason for him discouraging Jon to join the NW? Don't think he will be the one to tell him however but he may help to confirm it if he ever shows up again. Think Howland Reed knows, but don't know if he will show up to reveal it, again might back up the claim? Think it more likely his kids know or will help Bran figure it out from his weir wood visions and reveal it to us the reader at least. When will Jon himself or anyone else find out? perhaps when Danny shows up with her dragons?? Maybe he will have strange dragon dreams while he's dead, if he's not running around in a wolf's skin. The characters knowing is perhaps not so important at the current place in the story. Failing all that it might be a GRRM double bluff and Jon is really a base born bastard of Ned and the fisherman's daughter and stay dead??????

[Young Lion]

Hey guys, my first time posting here!

I think the R+L=J is pretty much confirmed, of course not officially yet, but yeah, it's too good not to be true. Still, I don't really get how Jon could ever be considered King or a heir to the Throne. Rhaegar was married to Elia, not Lyanna, therefore only Aegon and Rhaenys could be considered his heirs, Jon is still a product of an extramarital relationship, a bastard, with the difference being that his name should be Jon Sand, not Jon Snow.

Now, there are two ways around this, but I don't really believe they can actually work out, especially considering that almost everyone that saw what happened in the Tower of Joy are all dead, except Howland, but he's just one man. It will take much more than that to actually prove something no one ever heard or considered ( Jon being the son of Rhaegar).

- Rhaegar could had annulled his marriage with Elia and then married Lyanna, therefore making Jon a legitimate heir to the throne, after Aegon. Now, I may be forgetting something here but I think there's absolutely nothing hinting that this could have happened. Maybe that's just me, but I think it would be pretty lame if Martin just introduced this now so very late in the story to legitimize Jon's pretenses to the throne.

- The other option is that Jon was a bastard because Rhaegar couldn't had married Lyanna but then someone legitimized him, just like Roose did with Ramsay. But who? Who can actually have the power to legitimize bastards? Only kings and the fathers of the bastards? I may be wrong but I believe Jon was born after Rhaegar left Lyanna to aid his father against the Usurper, so therefore he couldn't possibly had legitimized him.

Just my thoughts.

[Mayura]

Hey guys, my first time posting here!

I think the R+L=J is pretty much confirmed, of course not officially yet, but yeah, it's too good not to be true. Still, I don't really get how Jon could ever be considered King or a heir to the Throne. Rhaegar was married to Elia, not Lyanna, therefore only Aegon and Rhaenys could be considered his heirs, Jon is still a product of an extramarital relationship, a bastard, with the difference being that his name should be Jon Sand, not Jon Snow.

Now, there are two ways around this, but I don't really believe they can actually work out, especially considering that almost everyone that saw what happened in the Tower of Joy are all dead, except Howland, but he's just one man. It will take much more than that to actually prove something no one ever heard or considered ( Jon being the son of Rhaegar).

- Rhaegar could had annulled his marriage with Elia and then married Lyanna, therefore making Jon a legitimate heir to the throne, after Aegon. Now, I may be forgetting something here but I think there's absolutely nothing hinting that this could have happened. Maybe that's just me, but I think it would be pretty lame if Martin just introduced this now so very late in the story to legitimize Jon's pretenses to the throne.

- The other option is that Jon was a bastard because Rhaegar couldn't had married Lyanna but then someone legitimized him, just like Roose did with Ramsay. But who? Who can actually have the power to legitimize bastards? Only kings and the fathers of the bastards? I may be wrong but I believe Jon was born after Rhaegar left Lyanna to aid his father against the Usurper, so therefore he couldn't possibly had legitimized him.

Just my thoughts.

Hello The Brain :)

I asked a similar question not a long time ago, and it seems that Targaryen have a history of polygamous marriages. Therefore, Rhaegar could well be married to Elia and to Lyanna, making Jon the heir.

The thing that other forumers were saying, and that makes common sense, is that the King's Guard was still at the Tower of Joy, guarding Lyanna (and therefore, as we belive, Jon) despite the fact Rhaegar/Aegon/Rhaenys were dead. As the King's Guard is guarding the King, by definition, there was a lawful king in the TOJ that needed to be guarded.

[Young Lion]

Hello The Brain :)

I asked a similar question not a long time ago, and it seems that Targaryen have a history of polygamous marriages. Therefore, Rhaegar could well be married to Elia and to Lyanna, making Jon the heir.

The thing that other forumers were saying, and that makes common sense, is that the King's Guard was still at the Tower of Joy, guarding Lyanna (and therefore, as we belive, Jon) despite the fact Rhaegar/Aegon/Rhaenys were dead. As the King's Guard is guarding the King, by definition, there was a lawful king in the TOJ that needed to be guarded.

Never saw or heard about that, where was it stated? If that's true and possible, then yes, that can legitimize Jon but still, the only man alive who probably knows about all of it is Howland Reed, a crannogmen. I find it pretty hard to believe that someone will believe his story, almost 20 years later and probably without any kind of proof. No one (the characters of ASOIAF) will buy it.

Something just crossed my mind right now, I don't really even thought about it to see if it can make sense, it's probably just a stupid thought with too many inaccuracies but what if Jon is actually the real Aegon Targaryen?

[Mayura]

Never saw or heard about that, where was it stated? If that's true and possible, then yes, that can legitimize Jon but still, the only man alive who probably knows about all of it is Howland Reed, a crannogmen. I find it pretty hard to believe that someone will believe his story, almost 20 years later and probably without any kind of proof. No one (the characters of ASOIAF) will buy it.

Something just crossed my mind right now, I don't really even thought about it to see if it can make sense, it's probably just a stupid thought with too many inaccuracies but what if Jon is actually the real Aegon Targaryen?

Here is the Targ family tree: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/c/c6/House_Targaryen_Family_tree.jpg

We know Aegon married both of his sisters, for example.

As for Jon being the real "Aegon", thus the son of Elia Martell and Rhaegar Targaryen, it would be quite impossible judging by the fact Jon looks a lot like Ned Stark and thus has to have at least a Stark parent.

[Young Lion]

I may be wrong but I think it was only Aegon the Conqueror who did that, with both of his sisters. All the other Targaryens that were married twice or more didn't marry two women or more at the same time. They married, then the woman died, and then they married again with another.

Considering Jon, well, yeah, that is a good argument, but it can be explained by people seeing traits in him related to the Starks just because they were always led to believe he was one. People see what they want/expect to see. Yeah, probably a bad argument, but still...

Either way, it was just a thought without a lot of thinking from my part. The R+L=J is undoubtedly the strongest and most likely one to happen.

[Manderlay]

I may be wrong but I think it was only Aegon the Conqueror who did that, with both of his sisters. All the other Targaryens that were married twice or more didn't marry two women or more at the same time. They married, then the woman died, and then they married again with another.

That doesn't mean the Targaryens cant take two wives, the faith lost its war, the militant arm of the faith were disbanded, all rights of the faith to conduct trials and such taken away, and most importantly they would not interfere or say a word of protest regarding their practice of incest and polygamy, they targaryens were an exception when it came to marraiges, their valayrian practice of incest and polygamy was tolerated.

[Sansouci]

always assuming R+L=J...

we know jon looks like lyanna, but what if his mannerisms and his personality reflect raegar?

i'd nominate ser barriston to be the first to have an inkling of the truth as he knew both lyanna stark and raegar. it would also give him a nice little crisis to overcome seeing as he is so firmly attached to dany if he thought jon had a stronger claim. his word would also carry more weight than that of howland reed thoughout the seven kingdoms.

however it happens, i would like it to come from a direction unexpected.

If Barristen the Bold knew that Jon was Lyanna and Rhaegar's child, why hasn't he told Danaerys?