Jons Parentage Revealed

[chaishr]

I heard an interesting story today in an interview with D.B. Weiss..

When He and David Benioff started conceptualizing these books into a show, they met with GRRM and hoped to get his input/ blessing for a show. Well we all know how that ended. BUT wat I never knew is that GRRM quizzed both show runners before he agreed. His quiz was one question long and it was none other than "Who is Jon Snows mother?"

Both show runners got it correct only off the information of the books out at the time (AFFC). This means that all the info to figure out Jon's parentage is in the first 4 books.

Therefore R+L= J

Mind blown.

[Prince of the North]

I agree, he couldn't tell Catelyn because then she wouldn't be harsh towards him, people came to Winterfell as visitors, Catelyn coldness towards Jon would have been noticed by more than a few people. He had to be looked on as an outsider even by his own family to keep up the charade. I mean Robert and Ned were really good friends, Ned couldn't take any chances even though it meant a life of hardship for Jon and Catelyn. IMO Ned doing this for Jon, bringing shame to his good name and placing something between himself and Catelyn during their whole lives together is a testament to what an incredibly noble and good guy Ned Stark really was.

And I agree with you :)

Also, if Catelyn knew the truth (I believe R+L=J, obviously) would she not rightly be able to insist that Jon be sent away from Winterfell because of the incredible danger his very presence there poses for her own children, etc.? It may have something to do with what he promised Lyanna or maybe it doesn't but I believe Ned wanted to keep Jon close so that he could protect him.

I've said it before a few times on these forums but I'll say it again - what an impossible situation Martin crafted for our poor, dear Ned! I've always really felt for him. I mean, on the one hand you have your very best friend whom you love like a brother, on the other hand you have your sister whom you loved very much, and caught in the middle you have the life an innocent child. How do you reconcile all of that? Of course, the answer is that there is no way to perfectly reconcile that whole mess so you just do the best you can. Life is not a song or, if it is, it's often a sad one :(

[Greenfyre]

It all starts with who you believe them to be in the first place, Ned and Wylla, Ned and Ashara, or Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Out of curiosity... how did you decide those are the only possibilities?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

And I agree with you :)

Also, if Catelyn knew the truth (I believe R+L=J, obviously) would she not rightly be able to insist that Jon be sent away from Winterfell because of the incredible danger his very presence there poses for her own children, etc.? It may have something to do with what he promised Lyanna or maybe it doesn't but I believe Ned wanted to keep Jon close so that he could protect him.

I've said it before a few times on these forums but I'll say it again - what an impossible situation Martin crafted for our poor, dear Ned! I've always really felt for him. I mean, on the one hand you have your very best friend whom you love like a brother, on the other hand you have your sister whom you loved very much, and caught in the middle you have the life an innocent child. How do you reconcile all of that? Of course, the answer is that there is no way to perfectly reconcile that whole mess so you just do the best you can. Life is not a song or, if it is, it's often a sad one :(

I agree and I think Ned did the best he could in the middle of that Catch 22. He basically just took it all on himself. Can you imagine how hard it must have been for him to admit to all of Westeros that he had fathered a bastard, that he couldn't even control himself within 3 or 4 months of getting married and getting his wife pregnant. I know a lot of these lords have bastards, but he was not like that at all. It gave the likes of Jaime Lannister and others something to look down on him for. Gave his entire life of being credible and noble a big slap in the face and said 'I am not who you all think i am.'

I wouldn't doubt that in his younger years he had even criticized others for fathering bastards. I really hope that we get some scenes of a young Ned and Lyanna via Bran and the weirwoods in the next book. it could even be what Bran wants to show Theon and Stannis. the truth of what happened. OMG if Stannis saw that I wonder if he would even care?

[Prince of the North]

OMG if Stannis saw that I wonder if he would even care?

No, unfortunately, I don't think Stannis would care much if he found out that R+L=J. Remember, he's described as being "rigid" and in danger of being "brittle". He'll break before he bends, etc. No, I think he would simply see it as his "side" ousting the Targaryens during the rebellion, his brother being made King, and himself as the "rightful" (heh, whatever that means) king now because he's his brother's legitimate heir.

Actually, I suspect R+L=J will be revealed to we readers but I don't see it mattering much at all to the politics in Westeros in the end. But I think it will matter a great deal in the coming struggle against the Others, etc. and that's what's really important in ASoIaF, not the petty game of thrones ;)

[The Giver]

I posted this in a re-read thread, but maybe this is the better place for it?

I can't stress enough that I WANT it to be R+L=J, but I feel like it's too obvious (lol, maybe I'm on here too much), and GRRM wouldn't be so nice. I just get this feeling in the pit of my stomach that there's something we're missing, and Lyanna is a red herring.

I really like the idea of R+L=J, but I get a sneaky feeling that it is something else. Here me out, and let me know if this makes any sense:

I think that Ned was the one who shamed Ashara at the tourney by sleeping with her (unmarried). (That, or Brandon shamed her, and Ned consoled her by promising to marry her since he loved her). He may have decided to marry her to protect her honor (much like Robb marries Jeyne to protect hers), but because of the war, he needed to marry Catelyn. This would a difference in Ned and Robb's stories. Ned married the woman he needed to for the military support, even though he wanted to marry someone else, whereas Robb skips over the military option in favor of his honor.

Then Ashara would have given birth in her home and Wylla would have been there to be the wetnurse while Ned was in the middle of the war. He respected Arthur Dayne.but was forced to fight him anyway. (Romeo and Tybalt, anyone?) He took the time to bring Arthur's sword to Ashara, because of his respect for the man and because he needed to tell her, in person, that he couldn't fulfill his promise to her that he would marry her. Thus, the "price" that he had to pay.

She may have killed herself over her shame and his refusal to marry her, or in combination with her grief over her brother.

As for his promise to Lyanna. I like the idea that this refers to Jon, but since he dwells on it so much, it may be that he feels regret that he was UNABLE TO FULFILL HIS PROMISE. It could be that Lyanna had a child that Ned wanted to save, but was unable to, or that he did not keep with him. Or it could be that she asked him to save Rhaegar, but he was unable to.

My issue with Ned taking Lyanna's child from the TOJ, is that someone would have noticed him leaving the battlefield with a baby, and they would have wondered were it came from.

Now, there is the story that Ashara had a stillborn daughter, which works against my theory, but we don't know for sure that that is true, just like we don't know for sure about most of the gossip that goes around westeros about Jon's origins.

Either way, I like both Ashara and Ned = Jon and Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon, so I would be pretty satisfied either way.

So to sum up, my main points in favor of Ned and Ashara being Jon's parents are as follows:

• Ned loved Ashara.
  
• His shame is that he broke his promise to marry Ashara, which led to her death.
  
• He failed to keep his promise to Lyanna (whatever it was), which is why he dwells on it so much. If he had succeeded in protecting her child, he wouldn't have worried about is so much all the time.
  
• Jon would have been born at Starfall, and would therefore have enough time to be nursed by Wylla, who lived with the Daynes.
  
• Ned visited Ashara to tell her he couldn't marry her, not just for the sword.
  
• People would have noticed Ned taking a baby away from the TOJ.
  

What do you guys think?

[SoooTrypticon]

I don't post much, but I've got a bit of a crackpot theory...

1) I do think we'll learn about Jon's parents as readers, through the story taught to the Reed children.

2) I also think we'll get confirmation through Bran's weirdwood research, during which time we'll get a really good look at Lyanna.

3) Someone will make their way to Jon to tell him, but won't get there by the end of the next book to maintain suspense. I do think UnCat will have something to do with this. She might even have known the whole time.

4) Someone will go to Lyanna's crypt, and find it empty.

5) Quaithe will take off her mask, at Dany's request, and Tyrion, being a new addition to Dany's court, will prove his worth by identifying Quaithe as Lyanna Stark. Lyanna tells Dany that the two of them need to go meet her son.

I'd love it if Martin threw a massive curveball like that.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I don't post much, but I've got a bit of a crackpot theory...

1) I do think we'll learn about Jon's parents as readers, through the story taught to the Reed children.

2) I also think we'll get confirmation through Bran's weirdwood research, during which time we'll get a really good look at Lyanna.

3) Someone will make their way to Jon to tell him, but won't get there by the end of the next book to maintain suspense. I do think UnCat will have something to do with this. She might even have known the whole time.

4) Someone will go to Lyanna's crypt, and find it empty.

5) Quaithe will take off her mask, at Dany's request, and Tyrion, being a new addition to Dany's court, will prove his worth by identifying Quaithe as Lyanna Stark. Lyanna tells Dany that the two of them need to go meet her son.

I'd love it if Martin threw a massive curveball like that.

HAHA, as crazy as that sounds, I seriously got goosebumps when reading it. I just can't say that I agree Lyanna is alive, but who the hell knows in these books.

[The Bastard of Walton]

Is there anyone other than Howland who may have the answer to Jons parentage?

If he is still alive (hopefully) then its got to be important & we'll know the answer sooner than later.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Is there anyone other than Howland who may have the answer to Jons parentage?

If he is still alive (hopefully) then its got to be important & we'll know the answer sooner than later.

Howland and Benjen, and probably Bran and BR, and possibly the Reed children, but it's unclear.

I think that's it.

[LordStoneheart]

Is there anyone other than Howland who may have the answer to Jons parentage?

If he is still alive (hopefully) then its got to be important & we'll know the answer sooner than later.

Wylla might. Two different people gave her name in conjunction with Jon. Ned and Edric Dayne. I don't think that's coincidental

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Howland and Benjen, and probably Bran and BR, and possibly the Reed children, but it's unclear.

I think that's it.

Yup. Exactly what I think (possibly Wylla too, but who knows if she's even still alive?)

I think it's an absolute given that Benjen knows. There's a reason he joined the NW so quickly following Rob's Rebellion.

Some people also think that the Liddle and Norrey at the Wall may know.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yup. Exactly what I think (possibly Wylla too, but who knows if she's even still alive?)

I think it's an absolute given that Benjen knows. There's a reason he joined the NW so quickly following Rob's Rebellion.

Some people also think that the Liddle and Norrey at the Wall may know.

Oh yeah? Why would Liddle and Norrey know? I can't remember

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Oh yeah? Why would Liddle and Norrey know? I can't remember

I can't remember exactly either (and don't have a copy of ADWD to hand), but essentially there is a belief that a significant section of the North knows now following Maege Mormont and Robett (or Galbart, can never remember which) Glover's trip to Greywater with Robb's will. Opinion varies as to just how much (whether it includes the houses at Winterfell) how much of the North knows, but the general thought is the NW section of the North (keeping up), the area with Bear Island, Deepwood Motte and the Mountain Clans, have been informed about both the will and Jon's parentage. As members of the mountain clans, the Liddle and the Norrey would know, and they've seen Jon first hand, which may be enough to confirm it for them.

In the general ASOIAF, people have made the arguments much better than I have. Check out the Northern Conspiracy threads for more info. There may be one specifically on the Liddle and Norrey too. I personally am unsure of the theory, but it's a decent one.

[Raven's Teeth]

I don't post much, but I've got a bit of a crackpot theory...

1) I do think we'll learn about Jon's parents as readers, through the story taught to the Reed children.

2) I also think we'll get confirmation through Bran's weirdwood research, during which time we'll get a really good look at Lyanna.

3) Someone will make their way to Jon to tell him, but won't get there by the end of the next book to maintain suspense. I do think UnCat will have something to do with this. She might even have known the whole time.

4) Someone will go to Lyanna's crypt, and find it empty.

5) Quaithe will take off her mask, at Dany's request, and Tyrion, being a new addition to Dany's court, will prove his worth by identifying Quaithe as Lyanna Stark. Lyanna tells Dany that the two of them need to go meet her son.

I'd love it if Martin threw a massive curveball like that.

That would be great. Awesome post.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I can't remember exactly either (and don't have a copy of ADWD to hand), but essentially there is a belief that a significant section of the North knows now following Maege Mormont and Robett (or Galbart, can never remember which) Glover's trip to Greywater with Robb's will. Opinion varies as to just how much (whether it includes the houses at Winterfell) how much of the North knows, but the general thought is the NW section of the North (keeping up), the area with Bear Island, Deepwood Motte and the Mountain Clans, have been informed about both the will and Jon's parentage. As members of the mountain clans, the Liddle and the Norrey would know, and they've seen Jon first hand, which may be enough to confirm it for them.

In the general ASOIAF, people have made the arguments much better than I have. Check out the Northern Conspiracy threads for more info. There may be one specifically on the Liddle and Norrey too. I personally am unsure of the theory, but it's a decent one.

Ok I will, thx :)

[gande51]

I don't post much, but I've got a bit of a crackpot theory...

1) I do think we'll learn about Jon's parents as readers, through the story taught to the Reed children.

2) I also think we'll get confirmation through Bran's weirdwood research, during which time we'll get a really good look at Lyanna.

3) Someone will make their way to Jon to tell him, but won't get there by the end of the next book to maintain suspense. I do think UnCat will have something to do with this. She might even have known the whole time.

4) Someone will go to Lyanna's crypt, and find it empty.

5) Quaithe will take off her mask, at Dany's request, and Tyrion, being a new addition to Dany's court, will prove his worth by identifying Quaithe as Lyanna Stark. Lyanna tells Dany that the two of them need to go meet her son.

I'd love it if Martin threw a massive curveball like that.

this :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[aryagonnakill]

this :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

I now believe Bran might tell Jon his parentage instead of Howland Reed for the first time. I believe that we will see a scene we have already seen again. In ASOS jon has a wolf dream where he sees a weirwood tree that grows and then bran speaks to him telling him he is not afraid of the dark. I think that we will see this scene again from either Bran or Jon's POV with Jon as ghost and that there will be more to their conversation than just Bran telling him he is not afraid of the dark.

[The WarHammer]

I see something along those lines. The Quaithe tells Dany that she still has a nephew but "he is not of the sun but of the winter" or some kind of riddle. then the halfman figures out the relation

[Drogo_1]

There is no way that Lyanna is still alive and if by some freakish way she is there is no way in hell she is quaithe! that is a ridiculous thought that quaithe is lyanna. just foolish and uninformed.