Jons Parentage Revealed

[Cinder Stark]

It doesn't matter if Jon is technically a bastard or not, the only thing that matters is how people see him. If the westerosi don't accept polygamy they will think of him as a bastard, and Rhaegar isn't there anymore to force people to accept his second marriage (if that second marriage really existed).

Being legitimate wouldn't give Jon magical mind-altering powers that would allow him to bend the westerosi to his will, all those people would have to accept him on their own, and that would be very, very difficult.

The westerosi have proven again and again that they are quite willing to ignore both law and the official wills of their kings in order to pick a heir they like best. They followed Aegon II against Rhaenyra Targaryen because they wanted a male on the throne, they followed Daemon Blackfyre against Daeron Targayren because they wanted a warrior on the throne, and they followed Renly against Joffrey because the latter was too much a Lannister and to little a Baratheon for their taste (at that point very few people knew that Joffrey was a bastard, so it isn't relevant).

If Rickon and Bran are discovered to be alive, most people will said "Robb didn't knew that his trueborn brothers were alive when he made that will, otherwise he wouldn't have made his bastard cousin his heir, we won't accept that will". And if Jon can't gain enough support, the will won't matter.

About Manderly, he called Rickon his liege and not his king because: 1.-Bran is still alive and is older than Rickon and 2.-He said he would accept Stannis as king.

Good points but not relevant to the North. Robb's bannermen criowd him. Robb was betrayed, killed along with his bannermen sons etc. the north will not follow a child, definitely not a cripple. Jon is a fighter, Robb wants him, that matters. Jon will prove himself capable.

As for Stannis acknowledging Stannis as "his" king, he will if he survives but not his house. If Manderly survives, I see him turning things over to his son, making his son head of house with all the power. Stannis will get Manderly himself nothing more. Grrm loves playing on words.

[Ser Lepus]

Good points but not relevant to the North. Robb's bannermen criowd him. Robb was betrayed, killed along with his bannermen sons etc. the north will not follow a child, definitely not a cripple. Jon is a fighter, Robb wants him, that matters. Jon will prove himself capable.

As for Stannis acknowledging Stannis as "his" king, he will if he survives but not his house. If Manderly survives, I see him turning things over to his son, making his son head of house with all the power. Stannis will get Manderly himself nothing more. Grrm loves playing on words.

Being a bastard is almost as big a handicap for a claimant as being a cripple. There is a massive prejudice against bastards. Manderly knows that, and that's the reason he's going to support Rickon, who is neither a bastard nor a cripple: He plans to rule the North as Rickon's bailiff until the latter is old enough.

That said, if Jon makes a claim as Ned's legitimized son AND he proves to be an effective commander, he has a chance, but not if he comes out as Rhaegar's spawn: The northeners loved Ned and Robb, but Rhaegar means nothing to them. They would want a kid of Ned as liege, not Rhaegar's bastard offspring.

[The Iron Suitor]

I don't really think just because someone has the best claim they will be named King or followed, whether in the North or on the IT. It will certainly help to have a good claim, but it's all about gaining support and the people will follow the strongest and best leader. Powerful Lords will follow the people who can give them the most things. Whoever has the most to offer will gain the support. If a person thinks Rickon is the true claimant but think he's to young to win war they'll probably chose someone else say Jon, an experienced leader, as their King.

Having said this I don't think Jon would challenge Rickon for the North. Jon has honor and he knows it's not honorable to steal a crown from his own blood, remember he was raised by Ned Stark. Even if he has a fairly solid claim I believe Jon would see this as stealing,

[armidil0]

This is how I see it happening.

[Jon to audience] If only I was legitimate. Then I'd show 'em.

[suddenly Howland Reed ziplines onto stage. When he lands fire works explode, followed by a small applause from the audience.] Jon, I came with a letter from Robb. It deems you Jon Stark. [small applause]

[All the northmen rally behind Jon Stark] [Jon] If only I had a dragon to fight off the Others!

[it just so happens that Viserion flaps it's wings and lands on Jons shoulder. It breathes fire into the air and looks totally realistic.]

[Reed says] Also R+L=J. Almost forgot that one.

[Others enter stage]

[Jon to others] Others no othering! Others no othering! Others no othering!

[Others collectively go "aw, man." and exit stage]

[Jon fist-pumps, cut to freeze frame]

[audience applauds and stands up]

The End

[bogdevil]

This is how I see it happening.

[Jon to audience] If only I was legitimate. Then I'd show 'em.

[suddenly Howland Reed ziplines onto stage. When he lands fire works explode, followed by a small applause from the audience.] Jon, I came with a letter from Robb. It deems you Jon Stark. [small applause]

[All the northmen rally behind Jon Stark] [Jon] If only I had a dragon to fight off the Others!

[it just so happens that Viserion flaps it's wings and lands on Jons shoulder. It breathes fire into the air and looks totally realistic.]

[Reed says] Also R+L=J. Almost forgot that one.

[Others enter stage]

[Jon to others] Others no othering! Others no othering! Others no othering!

[Others collectively go "aw, man." and exit stage]

[Jon fist-pumps, cut to freeze frame]

[audience applauds and stands up]

The End

so is Ghost or Viserion Boots?

[armidil0]

so is Ghost or Viserion Boots?

Hmm. I've asked my theoretical physicist teacher and this is what the chemicals said.

Boots -plural. There are two boots in a pair of boots, but boots only has one pair. So he has two boots. Thus each boot is represented by ghost and viserion. So they both are one boot in the pair of boots. Also symbolizing song of ice (ghost) and fire( viserion).

I think I had something else but I lost it. Oh yeah, wouldn't ghost in tiny snow boots be adorable? or like yellow rain boots. Awwww.

[LordStoneheart]

Being a bastard is almost as big a handicap for a claimant as being a cripple. There is a massive prejudice against bastards. Manderly knows that, and that's the reason he's going to support Rickon, who is neither a bastard nor a cripple: He plans to rule the North as Rickon's bailiff until the latter is old enough.

That said, if Jon makes a claim as Ned's legitimized son AND he proves to be an effective commander, he has a chance, but not if he comes out as Rhaegar's spawn: The northeners loved Ned and Robb, but Rhaegar means nothing to them. They would want a kid of Ned as liege, not Rhaegar's bastard offspring.

Lyanna's son would still have some Stark respect, I think

[brighidg]

Seven hells. Did you read the part when she took Tyrion capture under the pretense of a known schemer having told her he won a knife in a bet.

You mean when her childhood friend told her Tyrion was responsible and she took him hostage in a move that could have given the Starks a major advantage (two Lannister sons hostage if events had played out similarly) if she had only gone to Riverrun and not to her mentally unbalanced sister?

Or when she released the kingslayer prompting Karstarks betrayal and Robb losing a portion of his army.

Robb lost a portion of his army by breaking his oath and then kinslaying. And Karstark was going to betray Robb one way or the other because apparently they were the only ones who had lost someone in the war and their feelings took precedence.

Catelyn gets blamed for the dumbest things. It makes me think half this fandom has unresolved mommy issues they like to project onto her.

[LordStoneheart]

.

You mean when her childhood friend told her Tyrion was responsible and she took him hostage in a move that could have given the Starks a major advantage (two Lannister sons hostage if events had played out similarly) if she had only gone to Riverrun and not to her mentally unbalanced sister?

Robb lost a portion of his army by breaking his oath and then kinslaying. And Karstark was going to betray Robb one way or the other because apparently they were the only ones who had lost someone in the war and their feelings took precedence.

Catelyn gets blamed for the dumbest things. It makes me think half this fandom has unresolved mommy issues they like to project onto her.

Five forum seconds without a Catelyn debat... Starting over. :P

No, I actually really love them. And her.

[BarristanTheBold1]

I also subscribe to the R+L=J theory. Was clear to me in AGOT when Ned is in the black cells and thinking about his sister....

I too think it will be Howland Reed who reveals the truth. The matter of how he reveals it would be the question. Howland Reed has never made an appearance since book 1. So sooner or later he'l pop out, and of course it comes with a heavy reason. Im confident that the R+L=J theory is true. you dont leave 3 of your kingsguard to just keep watch over a woman. Kingsguard are sworn to protect the royal family, so they werent protecting Lyanna. they where protecting a targaryen.

Agreed....Howland Reed knows, and I doubt anyone else does.

we will find out when bran does, through the weirwoods. jon will find out from the reeds and the realm will learn it when varys reveals ned stark's final letter.

ahhh, Bran may find out from the Reed children, but I don't think he will find out from the weirwoods. If I recal, the tower of joy is in the south and there are no more weirwoods in the south, they were all cut down......

Sorry, much as I'd like to, I can't buy the R+L=J argument.

Considering how annoyed Our Cat was that Our Bastard was living with T'Starks, you'd think Our Ned would've said something along the lines of 'eh up Our Cat, Our Bastard were Our Lyanna's bastard, but keep it t'yerself lass'.

Or summat.

It could mean Ned's life and the life of his entire family if Robert found out he hid R+L's son...certianly would mean Jon's life.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I also subscribe to the R+L=J theory. Was clear to me in AGOT when Ned is in the black cells and thinking about his sister....

Agreed....Howland Reed knows, and I doubt anyone else does.

ahhh, Bran may find out from the Reed children, but I don't think he will find out from the weirwoods. If I recal, the tower of joy is in the south and there are no more weirwoods in the south, they were all cut down......

It could mean Ned's life and the life of his entire family if Robert found out he hid R+L's son...certianly would mean Jon's life.

Yeah it was clear to me rereading GOT's in one of the first Ned chapters and he thinks, 'I have been keeping this secret terrible for 14 years', then like 2 pages later he mentions that Jon is exactly 14. It's so obvious!

[aryagonnakill]

I also subscribe to the R+L=J theory. Was clear to me in AGOT when Ned is in the black cells and thinking about his sister....

Agreed....Howland Reed knows, and I doubt anyone else does.

ahhh, Bran may find out from the Reed children, but I don't think he will find out from the weirwoods. If I recal, the tower of joy is in the south and there are no more weirwoods in the south, they were all cut down......

It could mean Ned's life and the life of his entire family if Robert found out he hid R+L's son...certianly would mean Jon's life.

Spoiler alert-----

There are Weirwoods in the South, we see them in Arriane 2.

[The Iron Suitor]

ahhh, Bran may find out from the Reed children, but I don't think he will find out from the weirwoods. If I recal, the tower of joy is in the south and there are no more weirwoods in the south, they were all cut down......

Spoiler alert-----

There are Weirwoods in the South, we see them in Arriane 2.

I believe it was said that there are no more than two in the same place.

[aryagonnakill]

I believe it was said that there are no more than two in the same place.

Could be wrong since I can't reference the chapter but I thought the word used was grove of weirwood trees.

[lady m]

ahhh, Bran may find out from the Reed children, but I don't think he will find out from the weirwoods. If I recal, the tower of joy is in the south and there are no more weirwoods in the south, they were all cut down......

But there is a weirwood at Winterfell where Ned liked to find solace & peace, and give his burdens to the gods. After all, Bloodraven knows. That's how I think Bran finds out, and how I think he shares the knowledge with Jon. Which means I think the reveal happens sooner than later, and a big part of Jon's story is his struggle with finding out Ned's not his father, and how or if to use the knowledge of his true parentage.

I actually think Howland Reed is a bit of a red herring/misdirection in the 'how will Jon find out he's Lyanna & Rhaegar's kid' sweepstakes.

[BarristanTheBold1]

Spoiler alert-----

There are Weirwoods in the South, we see them in Arriane 2.

Where is this? I have only seen Arriane 1.....

But there is a weirwood at Winterfell where Ned liked to find solace & peace, and give his burdens to the gods. After all, Bloodraven knows. That's how I think Bran finds out, and how I think he shares the knowledge with Jon. Which means I think the reveal happens sooner than later, and a big part of Jon's story is his struggle with finding out Ned's not his father, and how or if to use the knowledge of his true parentage.

I actually think Howland Reed is a bit of a red herring/misdirection in the 'how will Jon find out he's Lyanna & Rhaegar's kid' sweepstakes.

You could be right.......Either or both Howland Reed or Bloodraven/Bran could be red herring for the truth being laid out of Jon's parentage. GRRM is crafty, and I take nothing for granted with him. I guess I'm really interested in hearing a first hand account of what happened at the Tower of Joy and more into what kind of person Rhaegar was....and I was thinking Howland Reed would be a good source since he appears to be the only remaining survivor from the TOJ incident.

[lady m]

I tend to think of Howland Reed has the person who fills in the gaps, since I envision Ned talking to the gods/Lyanna about Jon, the promise, his struggle with the burden she placed on him. Not about the ToJ.

Isle of Faces has weirwoods, the Blackwoods have one, of course. I doubt there are many, if any, in Dorne, the desert wouldn't be hospitable for them. There seems to be one at the Red Keep, perhaps for visiting Northern lords. They're also in The Vale and there's discussion about how the Arryns tried to plant one at the Eyrie, but the terrain wouldn't allow it to flourish. The Arryns were the original Andel conquerors, and follow The Seven, so would have no need for a godswood or weirwood tree for spiritual or religious purposes, but they tried to have one anyway. But that indicates to me that they likely exist in The Vale. I've seen speculation that they might be a status symbol in the south, to show how old your House and castle are. Which is worth a thought or two.

Eta, I actually think Bran already knows, that's part of the reason we see his story go dark so early in ADWD. We'd get too much information too soon.

[Cinder Stark]

Where is this? I have only seen Arriane 1.....

You could be right.......Either or both Howland Reed or Bloodraven/Bran could be red herring for the truth being laid out of Jon's parentage. GRRM is crafty, and I take nothing for granted with him. I guess I'm really interested in hearing a first hand account of what happened at the Tower of Joy and more into what kind of person Rhaegar was....and I was thinking Howland Reed would be a good source since he appears to be the only remaining survivor from the TOJ incident.

Bran I think is going to see a weir wood image of r+l wedding. My guess, they got married right after meeting up, in front of a weir wood northern style on their way to the TOJ. I think they planned lyanna's "abduction", got married, got knocked up, thought if they hide for a year, dust would settle, the king could give lands, titles to the Starks to make nice, rheagar could then unveil lyanna as his second wife and their son. Sad didn't happen :(

[Zman1863]

I tend to think of Howland Reed has the person who fills in the gaps, since I envision Ned talking to the gods/Lyanna about Jon, the promise, his struggle with the burden she placed on him. Not about the ToJ.

Isle of Faces has weirwoods, the Blackwoods have one, of course. I doubt there are many, if any, in Dorne, the desert wouldn't be hospitable for them. There seems to be one at the Red Keep, perhaps for visiting Northern lords. They're also in The Vale and there's discussion about how the Arryns tried to plant one at the Eyrie, but the terrain wouldn't allow it to flourish. The Arryns were the original Andel conquerors, and follow The Seven, so would have no need for a godswood or weirwood tree for spiritual or religious purposes, but they tried to have one anyway. But that indicates to me that they likely exist in The Vale. I've seen speculation that they might be a status symbol in the south, to show how old your House and castle are. Which is worth a thought or two.

Eta, I actually think Bran already knows, that's part of the reason we see his story go dark so early in ADWD. We'd get too much information too soon.

I agree that if we are going to get the full story, its probably going to come from a combination of sources, since no one observer can answer every question that we have. However, I think all the sources may already be present with Bran. Bran will likely, or may already, have learned some of the story from Bloodraven or from his own sight. And the Reed children, a clear link to Howland, are there with Bran. If they knew enough about Harrenhal to tell a veiled story about it, chances are their father told them some other stuff also.

[lady m]

And the Reed children, a clear link to Howland, are there with Bran. If they knew enough about Harrenhal to tell a veiled story about it, chances are their father told them some other stuff also.

I go back and forth on how much the Reeds know. My current stance is they know everything that happened pre war, but not the aftermath stuff, Jon for the most part. This is a very dangerous secret to entrust anyone with, much less your kids. But I also go back to when Bran and they were at Queenscrown and they did t want him to have Summer help Jon. I tend to think if they knew they wouldn't have tried to stop him quite so much. But even if they don't know the whole story there are a lot of gaps they can potentially fill in.

If you catch me next week, however, I'll probably have a different answer to how much they know.