Jons Parentage Revealed

[LordStoneheart]

I don't think jamie needs redemption of any kind, but the event happened as it was brought jamie on the ground i.e he started seeing the truth which was always in front of him.

slayed one king, gave the next bastards, pushed a kid out of tower...

No redemption needed. he's saintly.

[Cinder Stark]

I like it how Mr. Martin has crafted the story in a way in which by the time Jon learns of his heritage it might not matter. When i think of this it always brings me back to i believe either Illyrio or JonCon's conversation with Tyrion why Aegon is worthy of rule. They said that Aegon has lived as a common man and has experience struggle and hardship. There is why it is believed Aegon will be a great king. That chapter always brought me back to Jon and the structure of leadership north of the wall. They follow the deserved, not the entitled. They seem to be flocking to his side already after his speech in the mess hall and it wasnt just the wildlings but the flints and norreys as well, imagine what will happen if he happens survive his attack. He will already have the wildlings, the giants, the Flints, the Norreys, Karhold/Thenns, and the youngbloods of the Nightswatch. These are all men who already choose to be lead by Jon in one way or another.

Agree!!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think that Benjen will be the one who reveals it to Jon. Bran may let others know via the weirwoods.

The list of people I think know are.....Bloodraven, Bran, Howland, Benjen and the Reed siblings (and Jyanna).

You think the Reed children know?? Meera is very unclear when she is telling the Knight of the Laughing tree story. But I am not sure they know the entire truth.

I think the only ppl who know are BR, Howland Reed, Benjen Stark, possibly Jon Con. Bran will see it soon if he hasn't already. And I mean whatever other servants that were at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna during the war.

[Hodors Shlong]

What if GRRM/HBO trolled everyone hard and revealed it on the show before in the books? :eek:

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

You think the Reed children know?? Meera is very unclear when she is telling the Knight of the Laughing tree story. But I am not sure they know the entire truth.

I think the only ppl who know are BR, Howland Reed, Benjen Stark, possibly Jon Con. Bran will see it soon if he hasn't already. And I mean whatever other servants that were at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna during the war.

Jon Con definitely doesn't know.

The reason I think the Reed kids know is this so spake Martin in which he implies they are aware of what happened.

http://www.westeros..../SSM/Entry/6494

There most interesting question was about what Meera and Jojen Reed know about the Tower of Joy. George said that the Reeds might know something about it.

[Khal_Rhaego]

Does anyone want to speculate what Meera and Jojen's reason would be for not mentioning that Bran's half brother is his cousin and the rightful heir to the seven kingdoms?

[darksellsword]

Does anyone else find it interesting how similar Kit Harington (Jon snow) and Emilia Clarke (Daenerys) look?

its especially striking if youve seen the photoshoot they did for rolling stone magazine when they pose face to face while dancing

with Emilias natural hair color. Kit was in the stage version of War horse to much acclaim but Emilia Clarke was a complete unknown.

Grrm did have influence over casting. Im sorry for using examples from the Tv series but i do see it as further proof of Jons heritage

within the story.

[BlindGirl]

I think Cold Hands is Ben Stark

[BlindGirl]

For those of you who think that R+L=J will make a big difference I have to let you down. If Jon is a product of Rhegar then it wouldn't entitle him to be king of the 7 kingdoms. Jon would've been Rheagar's bastard and not entitled to inherit anything other then a bastards name. It would mean that Aegon is Jons older half brother, and rightful heir to the iron throne. His claim would be stronger then Dany's also. Jon would still be dead or undead at the wall with nothing to inherit or rule other then the wall presuming GRRM brings him back to life and allows him to remain the LC of the NW. Other then riding a dragon I don't see how his parentage matters.

didn't Robb legitimize Jon before the Red Wedding? wouldn't that make him a legitimate heir even if he's not a stark?

[Ser Lepus]

didn't Robb legitimize Jon before the Red Wedding? wouldn't that make him a legitimate heir even if he's not a stark?

Robb legitimized him as son of Ned Stark. Jon can't have it both ways: He can't be legitimized as a Stark AND be heir to the Targayren crown.

In order to be taken seriously as a claimant of the Iron Throne, he would have to prove his Targayren ancestry, but that would annull Robb's legitimation, since Jon wouldn't be a bastard of Ned to start with.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

Robb legitimized him as son of Ned Stark. Jon can't have it both ways: He can't be legitimized as a Stark AND be heir to the Targayren crown.

In order to be taken seriously as a claimant of the Iron Throne, he would have to prove his Targayren ancestry, but that would annull Robb's legitimation, since Jon wouldn't be a bastard of Ned to start with.

I'm not sure if I agree. He still has Stark blood through Lyanna so he still would be eligible for the inheritence as a Stark. I think he will give it up once he realizes Rickon is alive and he stands to inherit a bigger Kingdom though.

[Cinder Stark]

Robb legitimized him as son of Ned Stark. Jon can't have it both ways: He can't be legitimized as a Stark AND be heir to the Targayren crown.

In order to be taken seriously as a claimant of the Iron Throne, he would have to prove his Targayren ancestry, but that would annull Robb's legitimation, since Jon wouldn't be a bastard of Ned to start with.

No Robb legalized Jon as his heir. Yes he thinks Jon is his brother, that doesn't matter, Jon is his heir, who also happens to be the hidden targ king. He can have it both ways, he will become king of the north because of Robb, knowing who his parents are doesn't change that.

[Cinder Stark]

I'm not sure if I agree. He still has Stark blood through Lyanna so he still would be eligible for the inheritence as a Stark. I think he will give it up once he realizes Rickon is alive and he stands to inherit a bigger Kingdom though.

Why do people feel like Jon would "give up" his Stark kingship, I don't. Jon is still a Stark, the oldest surviving Stark who can take care of his cousins and lead in the north. Rickon, Bran and be knights, or powerful lords. Jon "is" Robb's heir, a stark, it's not about oops we found another stark its about the will.

[Ser Lepus]

No Robb legalized Jon as his heir. Yes he thinks Jon is his brother, that doesn't matter, Jon is his heir, who also happens to be the hidden targ king. He can have it both ways, he will become king of the north because of Robb, knowing who his parents are doesn't change that.

If he can prove that he's the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (that is, if they were married and he's their legitimate son) he would be heir to the Iron Throne before Dany (assuming Aegon is fake) and the heir to the crown of the North after Bran and Rickon (and he could try to steal it from them, making a claim based on Robb's will).

But, on the other hand, if he was a bastard son of Rhaegar, or if Rhaegar married Lyanna but people don't believe it, there isn't a thing Robb could do about that, even if he had known the whole truth before his death.

Robb legitimized him as a Stark and made him heir to the crown of the North. Robb can't legitimize him as a Targayren and heir to the Iron Throne, Robb was the King of the North, he didn't have a say about who is a trueborn Targayren or not, or about who is the heir of the Iron Throne. Robb didn't have authority over legitimacy and inheritance matters outside his own kingdom.

So Jon could take the Stark name (either as son of Ned or as son of Lyanna) and make a claim for the crown of the North, but unless he can prove that he's the trueborn son of Rhaegar, Robb's will won't make him heir to the Iron Throne. That would be as if the Sealord of Braavos legitimated Gendry as a Baratheon and heir of Robert, a ruler from a kingdom can't decide about inheritance in another different kingdom.

And anyway, if two trueborn sons of Eddard Stark (Bran and Rickon) are proved alive, and Jon is discovered to not be the son of Eddard Stark, most northen lords will probably consider Robb's will null, and refuse to acknowledge Jon. If Jon claims to be the son of Rhaegar he will probably lose both the crown of the North and the Iron Throne, so, unless he can prove himself the legitimate son of Rhaegar, he would do better keeping his mouth shut and passing as Ned's son.

[Cinder Stark]

If he can prove that he's the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (that is, if they were married and he's their legitimate son) he would be heir to the Iron Throne before Dany (assuming Aegon is fake) and the heir to the crown of the North after Bran and Rickon (and he could try to steal it from them, making a claim based on Robb's will).

But, on the other hand, if he was a bastard son of Rhaegar, or if Rhaegar married Lyanna but people don't believe it, there isn't a thing Robb could do about that, even if he had known the whole truth before his death.

Robb legitimized him as a Stark and made him heir to the crown of the North. Robb can't legitimize him as a Targayren and heir to the Iron Throne, Robb was the King of the North, he didn't have a say about who is a trueborn Targayren or not, or about who is the heir of the Iron Throne. Robb didn't have authority over legitimacy and inheritance matter outside his own kingdom.

So Jon could take the Stark name (either as son of Ned or as son of Lyanna) and make a claim for the crown of the North, but unless he can prove that he's the trueborn son of Rhaegar, Robb's will won't make him heir to the Iron Throne. That would be as if the Sealord of Braavos legitimated Gendry as a Baratheon and heir of Robert, a ruler from a kingdom can't decide about inheritance in another different kingdom.

And anyway, if two trueborn sons of Eddard Stark (Bran and Rickon) are proved alive, and Jon is discovered to not be the son of Eddard Stark, most northen lords will probably consider Robb's will null, and refuse to acknowledge Jon. If Jon claims to be the son of Rhaegar he will probably lose both the crown of the North and the Iron Throne, so, unless he can prove himself the legitimate son of Rhaegar, he would do better keeping his mouth shut and passing as Ned's son.

Robb named Jon his heir, giving Jon the kingship of the North. Jon isn't taking anything or making a claim, he's given a crown by Robb.

[Ser Lepus]

Robb named Jon his heir, giving Jon the kingship of the North. Jon isn't taking anything or making a claim, he's given a crown by Robb.

I was answering to these two posts:

For those of you who think that R+L=J will make a big difference I have to let you down. If Jon is a product of Rhegar then it wouldn't entitle him to be king of the 7 kingdoms. Jon would've been Rheagar's bastard and not entitled to inherit anything other then a bastards name. It would mean that Aegon is Jons older half brother, and rightful heir to the iron throne. His claim would be stronger then Dany's also. Jon would still be dead or undead at the wall with nothing to inherit or rule other then the wall presuming GRRM brings him back to life and allows him to remain the LC of the NW. Other then riding a dragon I don't see how his parentage matters.

The first post says that Jon wouldn't be Rhaegar's heir because he would be a bastard, or at least he would be seen as a bastard by the people from Westeros, and bastards can't inherit, so he wouldn't get the Iron Throne.

didn't Robb legitimize Jon before the Red Wedding? wouldn't that make him a legitimate heir even if he's not a stark?

The second post says that Robb legitimized Jon, so he's no longer a bastard.

And I said that Robb can legitimize Jon as a Stark, but not as a Targayren, because Robb doesn't own the Iron Throne and the Targayran aren't his subjects, so he doesn't have a say about who is a Targayran or not, or about who sits on the Iron Throne.

I also said that if Jon comes out as Rhaegar's son, and Bran and Rickon are proved to be alive, most of the northen lords are likely to reject Robb's will an refuse to accept Jon as King of the North.

[duffmid]

Jojen and Meera know, but they might not know that they know. I think they definately know the story based on what Meera says in the Bran chapter where they tell the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree:

"That part about the ransoms was stupid. And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty."

"She was," said Meera, "but that's a sadder story."

So I think they know the story of what happens to the wolf maid after the tourney, but maybe they don't realize it is not just a story, and they don't know the true names of the people involved. To them it's just a story their father told them.

[darksellsword]

@Ser Lepus there is absolutely no way Grrm would move jon from being a bastard born stark to a bastard born targaryen it would be utterly pointless.

[Cinder Stark]

I was answering to these two posts:

The first post says that Jon wouldn't be Rhaegar's heir because he would be a bastard, or at least he would be seen as a bastard by the people from Westeros, and bastards can't inherit, so he wouldn't get the Iron Throne.

The second post says that Robb legitimized Jon, so he's no longer a bastard.

And I said that Robb can legitimize Jon as a Stark, but not as a Targayren, because Robb doesn't own the Iron Throne and the Targayran aren't his subjects, so he doesn't have a say about who is a Targayran or not, or about who sits on the Iron Throne.

I also said that if Jon comes out as Rhaegar's son, and Bran and Rickon are proved to be alive, most of the northen lords are likely to reject Robb's will an refuse to accept Jon as King of the North.

I see, I don't agree with you regarding the north and Jon. I think Manderly knows about the will and about Rickon/bran being alive. When Manderly sends Davis after rickon, he calls rickon his liege lord, I believe he states it this way for a reason. I think the north will rally behind Robb's choice, their kings wish was Jon. Jon is heir, will have the north. After everything that's happened to the Starks, I don't think Jon will want thi IT. I don't see any more Starks heading south anytime soon. Also, I think Jon was a legit son, 2nd marriage old gods style!!!

[Ser Lepus]

@Ser Lepus there is absolutely no way Grrm would move jon from being a bastard born stark to a bastard born targaryen it would be utterly pointless.

It doesn't matter if Jon is technically a bastard or not, the only thing that matters is how people see him. If the westerosi don't accept polygamy they will think of him as a bastard, and Rhaegar isn't there anymore to force people to accept his second marriage (if that second marriage really existed).

Being legitimate wouldn't give Jon magical mind-altering powers that would allow him to bend the westerosi to his will, all those people would have to accept him on their own, and that would be very, very difficult.

I see, I don't agree with you regarding the north and Jon. I think Manderly knows about the will and about Rickon/bran being alive. When Manderly sends Davis after rickon, he calls rickon his liege lord, I believe he states it this way for a reason. I think the north will rally behind Robb's choice, their kings wish was Jon. Jon is heir, will have the north. After everything that's happened to the Starks, I don't think Jon will want thi IT. I don't see any more Starks heading south anytime soon. Also, I think Jon was a legit son, 2nd marriage old gods style!!!

The westerosi have proven again and again that they are quite willing to ignore both law and the official wills of their kings in order to pick a heir they like best. They followed Aegon II against Rhaenyra Targaryen because they wanted a male on the throne, they followed Daemon Blackfyre against Daeron Targayren because they wanted a warrior on the throne, and they followed Renly against Joffrey because the latter was too much a Lannister and to little a Baratheon for their taste (at that point very few people knew that Joffrey was a bastard, so it isn't relevant).

If Rickon and Bran are discovered to be alive, most people will said "Robb didn't knew that his trueborn brothers were alive when he made that will, otherwise he wouldn't have made his bastard cousin his heir, we won't accept that will". And if Jon can't gain enough support, the will won't matter.

About Manderly, he called Rickon his liege and not his king because: 1.-Bran is still alive and is older than Rickon and 2.-He said he would accept Stannis as king.