total1402 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I know Davos meant well and all. But, even when watching the series before reading the books, I pretty much decided then that Stannis would not win due to that bit of foreshadowing and that it would come back to bite him.I admit I am not entirely sure how she might have helped him win. I suppose a magical warning about Tywin and Loras would have helped. Also, in the books, but not in the TV series, its her being kept seperate from the fight which briefly pushes Stannis closer to Melisandre and her beliefs during the start of Storm; until Davos shows up again. Whilst in the TV series he does blame her for his defeat initially even though he spurned her help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreyKraken Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Stannis wouldn't have been able to win the fight with Mel or without, the combination of Tyrell and Lannister forces was too much for the Host of Stannis to handle and Stannis would still lose significant amount of men trying to take the city anyway. If Mel was with Stannis, I think he could retreat and fight another day since he would know that he can't win that battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Soprano Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I don't think Melisandre's presence would have made any difference at the Blackwater. The combined might of the Lannister - Tyrell forces is what decided the outcome of the battle, and I don't think Mel could have affected that in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gaga's bastard Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 If Melisandre had some magical ability were she can be able to control the wildfire (highly unlikely since she gives birth to shadows, sees the future in fires, and is immune to poison) Stannis would have still lost. The Lann/Tyrell force was too much for his army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Shiera Seastar~ Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Stan and Mel could have used one more shadow baby to kill Joffrey or Tyrion before the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrrhus of Epirus Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I think people really underestimate how helpful Meslisandre can be. Wasn't she the one who burned the warger's hawk in the sky and kept the Wildlings from spotting the ambush during the battle at the wall? I don't know how'd she help, per say but I'm sure she'd have helped in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hound! Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Stan and Mel could have used one more shadow baby to kill Joffrey or Tyrion before the battle.I agree - I think with Mel's being able to see stuff, and her being able to combine (lol) with Stannis to generate shadow babies and kill people, she would have been able to engineer a death for Tyrion (and hence no chain, no wildfire etc.) and Stannis would have wiped the floor. It would have been a much gaunter-looking Stannis, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Net-Viper X Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Stannis was caught in the flank by a opponent with a huge superiority in numbers and overwhelmed, there is not much that he could have done to save that situation. If Mel had been there to warn him he could have prepared for the assault, but he would still be trapped between two enemies and badly outnumbered with no supply line so the end result would have been the same, it would have simply taken Tyrell/Lannisters troops a little longer to grind Stannis down. The only way Mel could have truely effected the outcome is if she had convinced Stannis not to attack at that time and waited until the Lannisters and Tyrells were engaged in battle elsewhere so they could not come to rescue Kings Landing.Truth be told, it was probably better for Stannis that he lost. If he had won then he would have found himself under a massive seige by two armies and pinned down in that castle unable to effect the outcome of events in Westeros. With a small force like Stannis has, being able to outmanuever your enemy can be his greatest asset, and he would lose that asset the moment he holed up in a castle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 No. Melissandre is a rainmaker. A snake oil salesman. She makes promises and when they don't come through she finds a reason for it to be YOUR fault and when and if that promise does come true, she takes the credit. She's a classic con woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalalOfDorne Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 No. Melissandre is a rainmaker. A snake oil salesman. She makes promises and when they don't come through she finds a reason for it to be YOUR fault and when and if that promise does come true, she takes the credit. She's a classic con woman. :agree: She wins either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrrhus of Epirus Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I just figured out how she could have helped. Pretty sure Stannis' fleet was delayed due to poor weather, but during the trip to the Wall, Melisandre had burnt Stannis' previous hand and gave them the winds necessary to make some record breaking time to the wall. If she could buy Stannis even an extra day, that's all it would take. Tyrion would delay Stannis, but with a few extra hours before being taken in the flank, he'd have the time necessary to force his way into King's Landing and take whatever hostages he needed. And with the "king" his prisoner and the city fallen, Tywin and the Tyrells would be stuck on the wrong side of the walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 :agree: She wins either way.That's why con men are so effective. :bang: You can't win, as soon as they open their mouth you're done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 I just figured out how she could have helped. Pretty sure Stannis' fleet was delayed due to poor weather, but during the trip to the Wall, Melisandre had burnt Stannis' previous hand and gave them the winds necessary to make some record breaking time to the wall. If she could buy Stannis even an extra day, that's all it would take. Tyrion would delay Stannis, but with a few extra hours before being taken in the flank, he'd have the time necessary to force his way into King's Landing and take whatever hostages he needed. And with the "king" his prisoner and the city fallen, Tywin and the Tyrells would be stuck on the wrong side of the walls.Yeah thats probs it and his best chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis ftw Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Yeah, wasting a shadowbaby on C. Penrose was epic waste to begin with. Just not to look weak? Much better targets in Kings Landing. Just like Arya wasting "free assasination card" on whats-his-name, Weese? And another to one of Gregors rank-and-file soldiers. Why not pick Tywin, enabling Stannis to storm the capital and our game of thrones would have ended in book 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Judah Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 No and if you think about it she was the one who lost him the battle with her messed up visions and idiotic prophecies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter209 Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 The blame for defeat during the Blackwater lies squarely on the shoulders of Imry Florent. He sends pretty much every ship into the bay due to his overconfidence that they'll win because of overwhelming force. Just read Davos' chapter during the naval assault, and you'll see why it's such a god awful plan. Why not send in a wave to engage the Home Fleet, then if all goes well, send in the rest for mop-up duty while shuttling the land force across?Melisandre's presence doesn't mean shit if she doesn't give birth to a shadowbaby. Y'all are way overestimating the abilities of a person we know is not very good at her job of "reading the flames" when we're told flat out that she looks for Stannis but all she sees is "Snow". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I like Stannis, but I think the idea that he killed Renly because of a vision of Renly defeating him beneath the walls of Kings Landing wearing his green armor coming true with someone else wearing his green armor is absolutely spectacular. Well played, GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livewyre Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 I think she would've done something to change the outcome. She may have seen the wildfire and chain in river and he could've averted that trap. however you feel about Mel, Stannis never lost a battle with her at his side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrish Swamp Thing Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Depends on how many shadowbabies she brings with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanml82 Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Doesn't she say, in her POVs, that the shadowbabies took a lot of her? She might not be able to produce another one for quite some time.The best she can do is to see (again) the Lannister-Tyrell host and interpret it correctly, or see the wyldfire.Or toss Imry Florent through the stairs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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