Could Stannis have won on Blackwater Bay if Melisandre had been with him?

[Grip]

I think that Stannis having a more capable naval commander could have meant victory on Blackwater Bay, Mel I doubt could do much in the end besides perhaps inspiring the followers of R'hllor to fight harder erc. I dont know what else she could have done, mindful of the discussion above, but I am certain that with a more cautious commander the navy could have performed better.

[TinHouse]

Only if Mel is capable of instantly forging a shadow army equal to Tywin's, or conjuring up enough fire quick enough to burn them before they even reached the thick of the battle.

[areacode201]

As was stated already, Stannis still would have been in a bad spot even if he won Blackwater. Say Mel helped him get there a day or two early before Tywin shows up with the Tyrells. Stannis takes KL, executes Cersei and the kids, etc. Tywin and the Tyrells show up the next day and lay siege to the city. The city is already starved, there aren't many extra men there Stannis can recruit. It would be the Siege of Storms End all over again except Stannis would be able to leave the city by sea. If he left, where would he go? Back to Dragonstone? Tywin would want revenge for killing his daughter and grandchildren. He could have left 10-20k men to maintain the siege and still sent plenty of men West/North to deal with Robb. Stannis would have access to the royal treasury, he could hire sellswords from Essos or try to buy off more Westerosi lords, but that takes time, how long can he hold Kings Landing? Winning on the Blackwater would have sat Stannis on the Iron Throne but I don't know how he could have held it.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

Only if she sent a shadow baby to kill both Tywin Lannister and Loras Tyrell.

[western wolf]

I think she could have used magic tricks which just might have tipped the balance, such as ensuring that Tyrion died during the battle.

[juanml82]

As was stated already, Stannis still would have been in a bad spot even if he won Blackwater. Say Mel helped him get there a day or two early before Tywin shows up with the Tyrells. Stannis takes KL, executes Cersei and the kids, etc. Tywin and the Tyrells show up the next day and lay siege to the city. The city is already starved, there aren't many extra men there Stannis can recruit. It would be the Siege of Storms End all over again except Stannis would be able to leave the city by sea. If he left, where would he go? Back to Dragonstone? Tywin would want revenge for killing his daughter and grandchildren. He could have left 10-20k men to maintain the siege and still sent plenty of men West/North to deal with Robb. Stannis would have access to the royal treasury, he could hire sellswords from Essos or try to buy off more Westerosi lords, but that takes time, how long can he hold Kings Landing? Winning on the Blackwater would have sat Stannis on the Iron Throne but I don't know how he could have held it.

Well, he could have held Joffrey, and maybe a bunch of possibly surviving Lannisters like Lancel, hostage in order to negotiate with Tywin. The tricky part is Cersei. If Ilyn Payne indeed kills her, Tywin will want Stannis' blood, as nobody would believe it was Payne who killed her.

[Stannis ftw]

As was stated already, Stannis still would have been in a bad spot even if he won Blackwater. Say Mel helped him get there a day or two early before Tywin shows up with the Tyrells. Stannis takes KL, executes Cersei and the kids, etc. Tywin and the Tyrells show up the next day and lay siege to the city. The city is already starved, there aren't many extra men there Stannis can recruit. It would be the Siege of Storms End all over again except Stannis would be able to leave the city by sea. If he left, where would he go? Back to Dragonstone? Tywin would want revenge for killing his daughter and grandchildren. He could have left 10-20k men to maintain the siege and still sent plenty of men West/North to deal with Robb. Stannis would have access to the royal treasury, he could hire sellswords from Essos or try to buy off more Westerosi lords, but that takes time, how long can he hold Kings Landing? Winning on the Blackwater would have sat Stannis on the Iron Throne but I don't know how he could have held it.

Its a tricky situation but as Juan said, Tywin's weakness would be his kids as hostages. Who will he fight for if not for his kids? Tyrells have no love for Tywin, its a practical alliance and they already flipped sides once. If Stannis offers them better terms they will flip once again.

[LordBloodraven]

Mel had her reason for not insisting. She foresaw the defeat and acquiesced when she was sidelined. Conmen always find a way to aggrandize themselves

[Victor227]

Stannis doesn't do 'negotiate'. Even if Stannis stole a march on the wind and arrived a day or two early, thus beating the Tyrells and Tywin to King's Landing, what does it gain him? Tywin knows it's an absolute situation. Stannis is an absolute man. The Tyrells also know it's an absolute situation, they lost their preferred king and sided with Stannis' enemies twice now. The Lannister/Tyrell Alliance was the end of the war the second it was forged. The only question was how bloody that war would be.

If Stannis took King's Landing and killed Cersei and Joffrey, Tommen would be crowned, betrothed to Margery, and the alliance would lay siege to the city. The people of King's Landing would quickly revolt, with the odds so heavily against them, just like the City Watch did in much more favorable conditions. Stannis may have held Storm's End, but this is a city he'd have just finished destroying the defenses of, and wiping out the local defenders. Stannis would sack King's Landing if it were just Tyrion and his defenses, but he'd sit that throne for all of two days or so before he'd be confronted with the choice of dying on it, or becoming the king that fled the throne.

It's for Stannis' benefit that he lost on the Blackwater. If Meli could have ensured it was a less disastrous loss, that would be great and all, but he wouldn't be seated on the Iron Throne if she were around. We know from her own pov that she's nowhere near as powerful as she appears, and she doesn't always react correctly, and that her visions are often correct in ways she doesn't see or recognize.

[Dragonguard]

I like Stannis, but I think the idea that he killed Renly because of a vision of Renly defeating him beneath the walls of Kings Landing wearing his green armor coming true with someone else wearing his green armor is absolutely spectacular. Well played, GRRM.

I actually missed that - Good Catch!

[Nictarion]

No. I don't think she can do anything about wildfire.

[Arkantos]

With Melisandre, they may have killed off Joffrey or Tyrion with shadow babies, which could have put KL right into their hands.

She may also have seen the approaching Lannister/Tyrell forces, allowing them to prepare a better retreat and save more of the army.

Her fires might've allowed them to counter-ambush the mountain men which killed off so many of Stannis' scouts and screwed him over so heavily.

Who knows, she may have been able to do some blood magic so that the fleet didn't get so heavily delayed by storms.

[Anwar]

If Melisandre had sent two more Shadowbabies to kill Joffrey and Tommen, then Stannis would be King by default. The Tyrells would abandon the Lannisters as they'd have no way to marry into the Royal family now.

[Pod The Impaler]

To the OP:

Tyrion unleashes the wildfire. ... and thn Melisandre invokes her god and forms it into something that burns King's Landing down (or at least leaves the AA's ships alone)?

This is the most I can get out of the situation. We do not know what powers Mel has regarding fire, if any, but then again until she spawned a shadow baby, it also did not seem like she had any tangible power to harm someone through magic.

:leaving:

[Waylin Stark]

Nah, she couldn't have helped. I mean what could she do, firebend the wildfire? Even her visions would have been worthless.

[western wolf]

i highly doubt it. i rather think that she would have died.

[Sun]

No.

[Mithras]

Not the right question. You should ask "Did Mel foresaw the defeat and wanted Stannis to be defeated?" and my answer is yes.

[Lord Thornhart]

Not the right question. You should ask "Did Mel foresaw the defeat and wanted Stannis to be defeated?" and my answer is yes.

Neat possibility.

Though Davos proved her foresight isn't perfect.

[khalhotpie]

She has pwers yes but who knows what extra visions shed have seen

If shed seen the comming lannsiter /tyrell army they might have called off the assault

If shed seen the chain theyd have saved a lot of manpower and naval power

if shed seen the wildfire............remember from the battle at the wall she can ignite things (the eagle) shed have detontated the ship/ships right at dock and the impact would have left the city ripe for a quick victory

Then when the tyrells and lannsiters arrived theyd have found a city under stannis and trebuchets firing wildfire pots at them.