Will the North declare for Dany?

[PatrickStormborn]

wildings

I don't think the Jon was force to give up his gods , Stannis told him he should bend the knee and take the wilding's princess as wife that's all.

and Stannis was letting the wildings cross the wall , they should be thankful they didn't lost their heads instead of their gods .

He was forced to give up his gods. Re-read the end of ASoS if you can't remember.

Yes, they should be thankful. But they aren't thankful because Stannis made them sacrifice their gods. Of course we know that they continue to worship their gods behind Stannis's back, but that clearly demonstrates that they're not loyal to him. Which, in turn, shows him to be irrational; a rational leader would have allowed the wildlings to keep their gods rather than alienating them from him/her.

[Rolex Baratheon]

It's irrational to expect loyalty from your followers when you force them to sacrifice their gods.

Stannis gives not a shit about what gods his men worship. He has Red god followers and the 7 followers also. In truth he has to appease Melisandre to some extent because he knows she has a certain power within her, so he makes his new followers give up their gods or else not get the benefit of his protection.

I very much doubt all those wildlings actually in their hearts sacrificed the old gods and I very much doubt Stannis cared about it.

And comparing him to Dany in rationality, one example goes like...

Dany: Tell me about my dad Barristan.

Barristan: He was... Uh, he had his good points and...

Dany: And?

Barristan: ....

Dany: I'LL HEAR NO MOAR

She didn't want to hear something she wouldn't like. Even though it was perfectly rational. Stannis on the other hand takes criticism from Davos and accepts his advice even when he seems apprehensive of it at first.

[PatrickStormborn]

Wrong.

What about that was "wrong"? Stannis and Melisandre told Jon to burn Winterfell's godswood. That's in the book. It's the reason why he refuses to become the Lord of Winterfell.

No this is proving your loyalty. This is how it works

But it didn't prove their loyalty, it just made them bitter and resentful towards Stannis.

How exactly would she be able to afford them?

Her plan was to purchase as many Unsullied as she could afford and then travel to Illyrio. On the way her dragons would grow in size and she could earn riches just by showing them to the inhabitants of various cities. From these riches she could purchase more Unsullied. It's that simple.

[Ser Ennepe]

Does it matter who said it? Melisandre speaks with Stannis's voice; if she says Jon needs to burn the godswood, he needs to burn the godswood.

Yes it does matter. Stannis never said Jon has to give up the old gods, Stannis not even forced his own men to abandon their faith. Like I said, he gives no Duck about gods, no matter if they are red, drowned, old or come in a pack of seven.

Her plan was to purchase as many Unsullied as she could afford and then travel to Illyrio. On the way her dragons would grow in size and she could earn riches just by showing them to the inhabitants of various cities. From these riches she could purchase more Unsullied. It's that simple.

Did she planned to free them?

[MotherAnduin]

Her plan was to purchase as many Unsullied as she could afford and then travel to Illyrio. On the way her dragons would grow in size and she could earn riches just by showing them to the inhabitants of various cities. From these riches she could purchase more Unsullied. It's that simple.

This is false because Dany would buy the Unsullied by selling Drogon.

Are we actually debating that Dany is rational? She followed a comet through a desert because she thought it was sent for her. She believes that she is immune to illnesses and fire even though she has been sick in the past and has suffered burns. She left three men incharge of Astapor after sacking it. She blindly believes anything women (MMD, Green Grace, Quaithe )tell her. She talks to grass for crying out loud.

[PatrickStormborn]

Yes it does matter. Stannis never said Jon has to give up the old gods, Stannis not even forced his own men to abandon their faith. Like I said, he gives no Duck about gods, no matter if they are red, drowned, old or come in a pack of seven.

He told Jon to burn the godswood in Winterfell. You may not consider that being forced to "give up the old gods", but Jon did.

Did she planned to free them?

I think we can take it as a given that she would have freed her own Unsullied; after all, she freed her khalasar as soon as she was in a position of power to do so.

[Lyanna Stark]

Are we actually debating that Dany is rational? She followed a comet through a desert because she thought it was sent for her. She believes that she is immune to illnesses and fire even though she has been sick in the past and has suffered burns. She left three men incharge of Astapor after sacking it. She blindly believes anything women (MMD, Green Grace, Quaithe )tell her. She talks to grass for crying out loud.

I assume by this you mean that a lot of the other POV characters always act rationally and never trusts stuff like talking trees, Littlefinger, portents in dreams or other such things?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

What about that was "wrong"? Stannis and Melisandre told Jon to burn Winterfell's godswood. That's in the book. It's the reason why he refuses to become the Lord of Winterfell.

But it didn't prove their loyalty, it just made them bitter and resentful towards Stannis.

Her plan was to purchase as many Unsullied as she could afford and then travel to Illyrio. On the way her dragons would grow in size and she could earn riches just by showing them to the inhabitants of various cities. From these riches she could purchase more Unsullied. It's that simple.

History(IRW) tell us that people have to show to their leaders their loyalty. The wildlings had to make a choice. Stannis per se never asked anything like changing their Gods(simply because Stannis doesn't believe in God). Mel did it.

How she could afford anything?

It's very rational someone to ask someone else to give up their culture?

[W.Kane]

Yes it does matter. Stannis never said Jon has to give up the old gods, Stannis not even forced his own men to abandon their faith. Like I said, he gives no Duck about gods, no matter if they are red, drowned, old or come in a pack of seven.

:agree:

I really LOLed hard at the bold part.

[MotherAnduin]

I assume by this you mean that a lot of the other POV characters always act rationally and never trusts stuff like talking trees, Littlefinger, portents in dreams or other such things?

Talking to trees is an established religion. Talking to random grass is not.

[E-Ro]

I don't think the north is going to declare for dany. I can't imagine a situation like this coming up.

[PatrickStormborn]

This is false because Dany would buy the Unsullied by selling Drogon.

No. I suggest you go and re-read the relevant sections in ASoS.

Dany only planned to buy ALL the Unsullied with Drogon. She had enough money from Illyrio's ships to pay for a smaller number without selling Drogon.

Are we actually debating that Dany is rational? She followed a comet through a desert because she thought it was sent for her. She believes that she is immune to illnesses and fire even though she has been sick in the past and has suffered burns. She left three men incharge of Astapor after sacking it. She blindly believes anything women (MMD, Green Grace, Quaithe )tell her. She talks to grass for crying out loud.

She did not follow a comet through a desert because she thought it was sent for her. She followed it because it was the only direction available to her. Re-read her first ACoK chapter if you're still confused.

She does not believe she's immune to illnesses or fire, where did you get that impression from? She tells her advisers not to worry about her and uses the justification "have you ever seen a dragon with the flux?" She never says "I'm immune to sickness"; she does it so that she can go and help the escaped slaves. Her thoughts during that chapter also make it clear that she doesn't believe it. She hasn't been sick in the past FWIW; that was her justification. As for being immune to fire, I can't find where she thinks "I am immune to fire". If you can find that sentence, your argument may have some credibility.

She did not leave three men in charge of Astapor. She left a grand council with three men leading that council.

That's three women - hardly an example of her trusting every woman, is it?

She was suffering from what looks like a miscarriage; in addition she was dehydrated and starving. It's hardly representative of her rationality.

History(IRW) tell us that people have to show to their leaders their loyalty. The wildlings had to make a choice. Stannis per se never asked anything like changing their Gods(simply because Stannis doesn't believe in God). Mel did it.

How she could afford anything?

It's very rational someone to ask someone else to give up their culture?

Mel asked it; Stannis approved. But the simple fact is that it only served to ALIENATE the wildlings, not make them loyal.

Erm, I've just explained how she could afford it... Go back and re-read my post if you're still confused. I don't know how much more clear I can make it.

She hasn't asked anyone to give up their culture (hence why she does not ban the tokar). She simply asks them to give up slavery, which is not specific to their culture.

[Lyanna Stark]

Talking to trees is an established religion. Talking to random grass is not.

So what about Jaime's dream about Brienne then? He went back and saved her based on a dream. Totally irrational! Later on he thinks he sees Joanna at Tywin's wake. Irrational! And he talked to the pretend woman too.

Or Jon's/Arya's wolf dreams. Lots of things are irrational and lots of people behave irrationally to one degree or another. At certain points, and normally for a reason. To ignore context makes for a rather pointless discussion.

She was suffering from what looks like a miscarriage; in addition she was dehydrated and starving. It's hardly representative of her rationality.

That's no excuse to do something as inexcusable as talking to grass! It was only a flesh wound!! :)

[Scipio Africanus]

It was only a flesh wound!! :)

Yes! Real Targs only suffer flesh wounds, it is known! ;)

But basically you're agreeing that Dany is irrational but not more so than other characters. I see only @patrick making a last stand here defending Dany's "rationality". ;)

[Winter's Knight]

If we're talking irrational: Stannis believes that he's a saviour from legend wielding a magic sword.

This is a fantasy series- characters buying into magic and prophecy-especially a character who hatched three dragons and emerged unburnt from a funeral pyre-is expected.

[Lyanna Stark]

Yes! Real Targs only suffer flesh wounds, it is known! ;)

But basically you're agreeing that Dany is irrational but not more so than other characters. I see only @patrick making a last stand here defending Dany's "rationality". ;)

Oh, I think you misunderstand me here. :) I think all characters (and all people) are irrational to some degree, but that there are situations where it is totally understandable. In Dany's case, I think she has good cause for what she does in most situations and that she isn't more or less rational than many others. There's no indication that she thinks she is some sort of super human, or that she blindly follow the red comet as a Sign from God (this is more Mel's area). Lots of people claim it is a portent, the comet, and in that I don't think Dany is alone or particularly irrational considering the pre-science setting. Osha for instance seem to consider it a portent, and she's not normally scorned for being irrational.

In Westeros and Essos there seems to be more of what we would probably label "superstition" more than actual irrational behaviour wrt the coment, dreams, etc. But then on the other hand, dreams and portents, Daenerys the Dreamer, the Red Coment, prophecies etc. all have meaning in ASOIAF which they don't in the real world, so that makes it more complicated as well. I think we can all deduce that Mel is a bit off and that she lets religion cloud her judgement, but generally I don't think Dany falls into this category at all. She's suffering more from inexperience and from not "getting" the Game of Thrones well enough. And she's hardly alone in the last category.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Mel asked it; Stannis approved. But the simple fact is that it only served to ALIENATE the wildlings, not make them loyal.

Erm, I've just explained how she could afford it... Go back and re-read my post if you're still confused. I don't know how much more clear I can make it.

She hasn't asked anyone to give up their culture (hence why she does not ban the tokar). She simply asks them to give up slavery, which is not specific to their culture.

I don't remember Stannis saying "yes go for it" to Mel. Also religious conversion was and is a way of unite different people and inspire them loyalty.

And why they should be give up slavery? (I am not saying that I agree with slavery. Just saying that when you make people change who they are and how they live isn't rational)

I don't think that Mel's actions were rational but I find the idea that Dany is more rational than Stannis hilarious.

[Rolex Baratheon]

I got ignored lol. Dany is irrational, Stannis isn't. The North would like a more rational leader like him.

[E-Ro]

I got ignored lol. Dany is irrational, Stannis isn't. The North would like a more rational leader like him.

I agree that the north would prefer stannis, especially if he kills Bolton.

[MotherAnduin]

The Dothraki named the comet shierak qiya, the Bleeding Star. The old men muttered that it omened ill, but Daenerys Targaryen had seen it first on the night she had burned Khal Drogo, the night her dragons had awakened. It is the herald of my coming, she told herself as she gazed up into the night sky with wonder in her heart. The gods have sent it to show me the way.

"I am the blood of the dragon," Dany reminded him. "Have you ever seen a dragon with the flux?" Viserys had oft claimed that Targaryens were untroubled by the pestilences that afflicted common men, and so far as she could tell, it was true. She could remember being cold and hungry and afraid, but never sick.

I concede that talking to grass could be attributed to sickness or miscarriage. In the last chapter, she claims that the flames did not touch her but we see her healing burns. She also claims that she felt the beginnings of a fever. If she was never sick, How can she recognise how sickness feels?

Trusting the wrong people is not in itself a sign of irrationality but isn't an equivalent argument being made to question the sanity of Stannis?

The question is about whether the north will declare for Dany. Let us leave the discussion of sanity at this and not go further off topic.