Honourable Ser Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 From Wikipedia:Aristotle established his view of what makes a tragic hero in Poetics Aristotle suggests that a hero of a tragedy must evoke in the audience a sense of pity or fear, saying, “the change of fortune presented must not be the spectacle of a virtuous man brought from prosperity to adversity."[ He establishes the concept that the emotion of pity stems not from a person becoming better but when a person receives undeserved misfortune and fear comes when the misfortune befalls a man like us. This is why Aristotle points out the simple fact that, “The change of fortune should be not from bad to good, but, reversely, from good to bad.” Aristotle also establishes that the hero has to be “virtuous” that is to say he has to be "a morally blameless man” (article 82). The Hero's flaw is what will bring him not success, but death by the end of the work.Aristotle contests that the tragic hero has to be a man “who is not eminently good and just, yet whose misfortune is brought about not by vice or depravity, but by some error or frailty.” He is not making the hero entirely good in which he can do no wrong but rather has the hero committing an injury or a great wrong leading to his misfortune. Aristotle is not contradicting himself saying that the hero has to be virtuous and yet not eminently good. Being eminently good is a moral specification to the fact that he is virtuous.He still has to be - to some degree - good. Aristotle adds another qualification to that of being virtuous but not entirely good when he says, “He must be one who is highly renowned and prosperous.” He goes on to give examples such as Oedipus and Thyestes.”TV Robb cannot be claimed blameless for Lord Frey's reaction, because his actions are selfish and not selfless. The act of sleeping with Jeyne was not the betrayal of Lord Frey, but hte act of marryng Jeyne which was selfless-done to protect Jeyne's honor. TV Robb, willingly pursues someone, that is not blameless, therefore he deserves his misfortune. Again, TV Robb is not morally blameless because of his own willful and selfish act. It is a vice to willingly ignore honor, the vice being pride and greed. Therefore, TV Robb fails that test as well.SOrry TV Robb is simply not a tragic hero.Erm...undeserved misfortune? Red Wedding anyone? As for Aristotelian values well... Take Othello for example, madly in love with Desdemona who is of a much higher social status, yet still manages to get her. Classic story. However, he is so consumed by jealousy that he is easily manipulated by Iago, leading to arguably Shakespeare's most tragic finale. Now then, from the Aristotelian viewpoint this is perfect, as you yourself have pointed out with your marvellous copy and paste from Wikipedia, as the hero must be someone "whose misfortune is brought about not by vice or depravity, but by some error or frailty." What has Robb done in the books but made an error from the frailty brought about by his love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Erm...undeserved misfortune? Red Wedding anyone? As for Aristotelian values well... Take Othello for example, madly in love with Desdemona who is of a much higher social status, yet still manages to get her. Classic story. However, he is so consumed by jealousy that he is easily manipulated by Iago, leading to arguably Shakespeare's most tragic finale. Now then, from the Aristotelian viewpoint this is perfect, as you yourself have pointed out with your marvellous copy and paste from Wikipedia, as the hero must be someone "whose misfortune is brought about not by vice or depravity, but by some error or frailty." What has Robb done in the books but made an error from the frailty brought about by his love?tV robbs actions are not an error or fraility. He willfully ignores his responsibilities. that is the difference. he does it for selfish reasons. he even lectures his mother to that effect-that honor is pointless because noone acts honorably. Therefore, his selfish act justifies retribution by the wronged party. Book Robb's act was selfless, thereby making frey's action while justifiable because he was wrong, allow sympathy for robb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Of Course, how foolish of me to stand in the way of your almighty moral absolutism. I fully expect most sane, rational human beings to cheer as Robb's mutilated carcass is put on display, he obviously is so undeserving of any sympathy.Im sorry that you feel that way, we are talking art here, where we are allowed absolutes. TV Robb is acting selfishly, I believe that indisputable. Therefore, he gets his just rewards or such selfishness, when looking at it from an artistic and absolute viewpoint.looking at it another way, certainly he is worthy of less sympathy than book Robb, wouldnt you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honourable Ser Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 tV robbs actions are not an error or fraility. He willfully ignores his responsibilities. that is the difference. he does it for selfish reasons. he even lectures his mother to that effect-that honor is pointless because noone acts honorably. Therefore, his selfish act justifies retribution by the wronged party. Book Robb's act was selfless, thereby making frey's action while justifiable because he was wrong, allow sympathy for robb.Are you a troll because if so you've done a fantastic job! This will (probably and hopefully) be my last reply to you. I can't see how anyone can argue an alternative point with you, when you just go on Wikipedia, copy and paste and then simply ignore some of the very things you point out! Robb is a tragic hero, by your own 'research', he is a young man with good intentions, but alas his fatal flaw of chivalric notions and the romantic ideals of youth have manipulated him. That's it. I honestly think you're the first person to argue that Robb deserved to die and that his story and character are not the very definition of tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Hmm, and why are you using ancient greek criteria for analysing a Modern TV Show, based on books by a modern author, itself based on Medieval Society? Hardly makes any sense at all. If you look at figures from Shakespeare for Example, the Tragic Hero is always a figure with a major vice, Macbeth or Lear to name a few. These are certainly tragic heros, ones who are especially tragic because there downfall's come of their own vices. Using Shakespeare as an example is also much better than Aristotle, as it is much closer to the culture and setting of the novels and series.Take the issue up with the author, not me. i am only describing what I see in the 2 art forms. Book Robb's error that lead to his death was not from a vice, but from act of selfless choice to protect a woman. that is clear from the text. TV Robb's death will lead from his selfish act of marrying for love. that is clear from the show. One is a vice and one is not. one is heroic one is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Union Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 srry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Soprano Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 What are you two doing? This is a TV thread, for people who haven't read the books. You're not allowed to post spoilers here. Take the discussion someplace else, don't ruin the show for people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Are you a troll because if so you've done a fantastic job! This will (probably and hopefully) be my last reply to you. I can't see how anyone can argue an alternative point with you, when you just go on Wikipedia, copy and paste and then simply ignore some of the very things you point out! Robb is a tragic hero, by your own 'research', he is a young man with good intentions, but alas his fatal flaw of chivalric notions and the romantic ideals of youth have manipulated him. That's it. I honestly think you're the first person to argue that Robb deserved to die and that his story and character are not the very definition of tragic.I always enjoy how disagreements so quickly turn to personal insults. I have pointed out how Robb does not meet the definition of Aristotle's definition as a tragic hero in 3 aspects and noone has provided rebuttals to those points. You are completely wrong in stating that TV Robbs "alas his fatal flaw of chivalric notions and the romantic ideals of youth have manipulated him." He specifically refutes chivalric notions-see his lecture to his mother on honor. Same with Romantic ideals of youth (whatever that may mean). He acts selfishly with the vice of pride and greed. there is no indication that Robb is manipulated, nor do I understand how one can manipulate oneself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarious Posted February 27, 2013 Author Share Posted February 27, 2013 Can we please stay ON-TOPIC! We are discussing how S2 could have been improved, or even the show in general. Not citing differences between books and the show in detail and revealing characters' arcs with major spoilers might I add in the GoT (TV) section and continuously ranting about it. Oh and better yet, insulting people back and forth. Make a separate thread for Robb+Talisa VS. Robb+Jeyne or something since that seems to be a hot topic these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 ok victarious I wont post OT here any longer though I perceived this as being on topic, ie a discssion of how S2 could have been imprved by a more faithful adaptation of the book Robb character, but I feel your pain and will desist and for the record I dont believe I was insulting anyone. regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Union Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 What are you two doing?This is a TV thread, for people who haven't read the books. You're not allowed to post spoilers here. Take the discussion someplace else, don't ruin the show for people.Sorry about that! Sometimes I forget that people on that some people on this forum dont read the books. Posts deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarious Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 ok victarious I wont post OT here any longer though I perceived this as being on topic, ie a discssion of how S2 could have been imprved by a more faithful adaptation of the book Robb character, but I feel your pain and will desist and for the record I dont believe I was insulting anyone.regards4 pages of that seems more like book purist ranting rather than a healthy discussion about the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Union Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 In order to appear like less of an ass and actually contribute, I would suggest that the scene where Amory Lorch is chasing Arya be edited, because it really is weird that he didnt get one of the Guards to stop her. Would that be possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarious Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 In order to appear like less of an ass and actually contribute, I would suggest that the scene where Amory Lorch is chasing Arya be edited, because it really is weird that he didnt get one of the Guards to stop her. Would that be possible?Just to make sure, are you asking me if I can edit it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Union Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Just to make sure, are you asking me if I can edit it?I meant more whether it would work, but I would also be interested to now whether you could Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin1989 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 lol, is this kind of discussion normal around here?About the Robb/ Talisa/ Jeyne part, you can argue days about it and there isn't still a right answer to it. How I see it. In the books I wasn't fond of what Robb did. He should have kept little Robb inside his pants and nothing wrong would have happened, but even than he's young, he has feelings, things like that happened in moments like that. That's what I liked about the Robb/ Jeyne part in the books. Who Robb would have choose Jeyne or a Frey, he is dishonoring one person and honoring the other. Which one would you choose?My opinion on the show. Robb willingly turned down his mothers advice of letting Talisa go, without being very emotional about the death of Bran (change in show) he married Talisa, fully knowing he will dishonor the Frey's. So in the show I find him very dumb.But why talk about heroes? There are no rules about what a hero is. One person thinks that a hero is somebody that helps an old lady crossing the road. And another things that somebody is just a hero if he gives up his live for a whole country. It all depends on the eyes of the beholder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarious Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 I meant more whether it would work, but I would also be interested to now whether you couldIt does seem rather silly, but he already has the note she was carrying. He would've just chased her down to interrogate her, but it's not like she's going anywhere, she certainly ain't leaving Harrenhal. So him heading back and asking Tywin what that was about makes sense rather than making too big a deal about catching Arya. From a storytelling POV, it works. I think.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Union Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 It does seem rather silly, but he already has the note she was carrying. He would've just chased her down to interrogate her, but it's not like she's going anywhere, she certainly ain't leaving Harrenhal. So him heading back and asking Tywin what that was about makes sense rather than making too big a deal about catching Arya. From a storytelling POV, it works. I think..Great! Look forward to seeing your edits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarious Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 Great! Look forward to seeing your editsHa, just so you know it probably won't be done for quite a while, what with school and all. Editing takes up a lot of time. But I'm willing to give it a shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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