Winter Fell?

[Mace Cooterian]

Perhaps (as the last days remnants of synapsis fires extinguish)....a brief parting thought.

Is the song of Ice and Fire a blending of Stark children? I tend to think not because (IMHO) ALL Stark children are exemblematic of the North. The only Stark child that exists "South" (and this is of course debatable)...is Ayra.

Don't get me wrong; I really want the book to be about the Stark family; plus maybe an honorable mention.

[Beric Zoolander]

In one of the early Bran chapters from aGOT Old Nan goes into pretty great detail about the Others...

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds-”

This sounds almost exactly like the adventure Bran is on now.

“They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins..."

This makes me think of the sword Dawn, could be a bringer of Sunlight and a great weapon against the Others.

She also describes the Long Winter as a "Great Winter Fell"

Bran may play a huge part in the Winter that is to come.

[Profion]

Let´s remember that GRRM himself said that Old Nan´s belief about the others is wrong, Others are not dead, they´re beautiful, dangerous...think the Sidhe made Ice.

[evita mgfs]

Thanks! Unfortunately, I don't think I noticed any of those things on my own. One of the reasons I come to these boards is to get insight from people with more talent for literary analysis. I never would have seen redriver's connection between Winterfell and the weather.

Your theory about each of the Starks representing different elements is intriguing. In their time apart they have each been influenced by distinctly different forces. I think I saw someone describe it as 'each side picking a Stark'. Now that winter has come, it will be very interesting to see how they reform their pack. I don't think it will be a completely smooth road. While I don't think they would ever truly be against each other, they have been exposed to influences that have differing world views. They will have to work to become united, but then they will be a truly powerful force.

I definitely believe she will play a key role in the Stark restoration at Winterfell. I think she will find her own strength in winter. She and Jon seem equally likely to be the leading Stark in Winterfell at the end of the books (I do think Jon will end up as Jon Stark).

:bowdown: :bowdown: GREENSLEEVES: You are honest and sincere to admit that you learned much from the boards. However, you are a very strong writer who is able to communicate the analysis and phrase it succinctly and clearly. The "writing" is one of the hardest parts, if you know what I mean. Also, by reading the threads, you will start forming your own theories over time. But as I already said, your writing is a strong suit, and the ideas will come with time. You will be well-trained in analytical thought by the time WoW comes out, and I bet by then you will have plenty of your own inspired ideas. I often am "inspired" by the posts that others make, and I will exercise my skills by "free-writing" after I read through a really insightful thread. It is amazing how your own connections come to the surface by journaling.

Now, I really like the idea of Sansa "restoring" Winterfell. I think that insightful piece of analysis is worth developing further. A good way to help with analytical thought is to take the passages from Bran's POV and from Sansa's POV and align them: look for language Martin repeats. Studying Martin's wording often gives me lots of ideas and helps me to develop an analytical theory.

Good luck, and I am sure you will go far!!

[Beric Zoolander]

Let´s remember that GRRM himself said that Old Nan´s belief about the others is wrong, Others are not dead, they´re beautiful, dangerous...think the Sidhe made Ice.

I never really took it as her saying they were dead in that sense of the word, she also talks about the dead people they bring with them as their army. I think she may just be distinguishing them from the living men of the world...

Besides I think we've seen some of what Nan says is accurate, some is not, they are stories after all, passed down, some information is lost in that, plus she doesn't even know which Bran she is speaking with right now, you can't expect too much, but I also don't think you can throw it all out either.

[evita mgfs]

Thank you Neo.The thread has benefited too from some high quality posters and civilized debate.In one sense the concept may have seemed a bit dry for some,it's about the bloody weather after all!

But the fun part comes in speculating about how the Stark children (including Jon) put this to rights.Who plays which role?

If this theory can ever be proven,I would imagine that would come from Bran and his weirwood link to ancient Westeros history.But there still needs to be a Stark in Winterfell to begin to remedy things.

I jumped straight to Sansa's snow castle chapter,because it seemed so connected to the ideas we're discussing here.So full of snow imagery and the idea of the castle being built and damaged,then the destroyer ripped in two.

Images and concepts such as Sansa wondering if the snowfall woke her,to the genuine time absence when she tastes the snowflake lead me to suspect at this point that she will be the Stark to restore Winterfell.

The first Queen of Winter?

:bowdown: :bowdown: REDRIVER: I am officially giving you a nickname: “Weir-Weather Driver”! Not only do you make “snow” a topic worthy of analysis, but you have written other brilliant, climate-related posts: recall your analysis of “bloody rain” in Ned’s POV, GoT, the Direwolf Reread Thread? Maybe you have an affinity for the weather? [And I mean this as a compliment!]

I have an observation I have made, and I do not know if it somehow fits with your “winter fell” theory. In AGoT, the heart tree in WF’s godswood has a “brooding” expression carved into its bark. Then, in ADwD, “Prince of Winterfell” POV, during the wedding of Ramsay and Jeyne Poole, Martin writes: “The weirwood’s carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked” (488).

I find this quite important: Is the “laughing” heart tree a result of the Stark lordling who is watching the mummer’s farce of the wedding taking place in front of the symbol of the “old gods”? – thereby, the wedding seems to be an act of blasphemy since the couple openly lies in the presence of the weirwood.

Actually, the Prince of Winterfell’s POV is filled with lots and lots of symbology, so I need to sit down and work on parsing it and applying your “winter fell” theories to what I find.

When I watched Season 2 of AGoT from HBO a second time on “blue ray”, I am pretty sure that the heart tree is crying in the scene when Bran, Rickon, Osha, and Hodor come across Maester Luwin after WF is burned, and Maester Luwin is mortally wounded. Now, this happens in the television series, not in the book; however, I thought it was a nice touch to use the face of the weirwood to convey the emotions of the Stark children.

So. . . just a few of my ideas that might have a “weighty significance” in regards to the advent of the snow falling.

[Beric Zoolander]

Now, I really like the idea of Sansa "restoring" Winterfell. I think that insightful piece of analysis is worth developing further. A good way to help with analytical thought is to take the passages from Bran's POV and from Sansa's POV and align them: look for language Martin repeats. Studying Martin's wording often gives me lots of ideas and helps me to develop an analytical theory.

Good luck, and I am sure you will go far!!

Sansa restores Winterfell like she did in the Eyrie with snow? Foreshadowing?!!! THAT would be cool.

[Profion]

The possibility of Sansa being the next Queen of Winter it´s actually big... the whole being in comunion with the snowflake and all... She´s of winter after all.

[evita mgfs]

Sansa restores Winterfell like she did in the Eyrie with snow? Foreshadowing?!!! THAT would be cool.

:bowdown: :bowdown: BERIC ZOOLANDER: I agree! :agree:

I never even thought of Sansa's building Winterfell in the snow as a "foreshadowing" device - or as a means to communicate Sansa's growing "supernatural" powers, as Greensleeves stated a ways back. It even makes sense to me that Bran may be somehow reaching out to his sister to help her advance her "pre-warg" talents. I am not sure how Bran is communicating with Sansa, but I am sure his talents as a greenseer are far-reaching indeed; Martin only touches upon Bran's powers in ADwD, methinks. [Doesn't BR visit Bran in his dreams? Perhaps Bran will be able to assist his siblings via dreams? I think this would be cool too!] Not that Martin needs my help in telling his story! :dunce:

[Beric Zoolander]

:bowdown: :bowdown: BERIC ZOOLANDER: I agree! :agree:

I never even thought of Sansa's building Winterfell in the snow as a "foreshadowing" device - or as a means to communicate Sansa's growing "supernatural" powers, as Greensleeves stated a ways back. It even makes sense to me that Bran may be somehow reaching out to his sister to help her advance her "pre-warg" talents. I am not sure how Bran is communicating with Sansa, but I am sure his talents as a greenseer are far-reaching indeed; Martin only touches upon Bran's powers in ADwD, methinks. [Doesn't BR visit Bran in his dreams? Perhaps Bran will be able to assist his siblings via dreams? I think this would be cool too!] Not that Martin needs my help in telling his story! :dunce:

Theres also a ton of snow imagery tied to her and WF in that chapter. Snow tasting like WF, things like that...

I always wondered if Sansa lost her Warg ability because she lost Lady or if she can still skinchange it will just come harder to her.

[evita mgfs]

The possibility of Sansa being the next Queen of Winter it´s actually big... the whole being in comunion with the snowflake and all... She´s of winter after all.

:bowdown: :bowdown: PROFION: :agree:

We all seem to have come to a consensus regarding Sansa's future role in the song of ice and fire. The Queen of Winter!

Sansa is often called "little dove" and "bird" too, and some birds are known to "sing" as well. So it makes sense that Sansa is part of the "song" along with the "ice" aspect of the series. I really like the way you said "communion with the snowflakes" - Bran, Robb, and Jon all have parallel "snowflake moments" too.

[Beric Zoolander]

The possibility of Sansa being the next Queen of Winter it´s actually big... the whole being in comunion with the snowflake and all... She´s of winter after all.

That same chapter Baelish kisses her and calls her a Snow Maid.

[evita mgfs]

Theres also a ton of snow imagery tied to her and WF in that chapter. Snow tasting like WF, things like that...

I always wondered if Sansa lost her Warg ability because she lost Lady or if she can still skinchange it will just come harder to her.

:bowdown: :bowdown: BERIC ZOOLANDER: I think Sansa will demonstrate her warg abilities in a different way from her siblings because she loses Lady; thus, she may be a little bit behind the others. I am looking forward to a "good read" when Martin reveals how Sansa discovers her innate gifts. She may not have the "wolf dreams" - her dreams may come through another "familiar"! Regardless, it is fun to speculate using the evidence that Martin does tender to us.

[evita mgfs]

That same chapter Baelish kisses her and calls her a Snow Maid.

:bowdown: :bowdown: BERIC: Good call on "snow maid". I am going to have to reread that POV to remind myself of the particulars. Everyone is presenting such good evidence to point at Sansa's possible future. It is very exciting!

[Profion]

:bowdown: :bowdown: PROFION: :agree:

We all seem to have come to a consensus regarding Sansa's future role in the song of ice and fire. The Queen of Winter!

Sansa is often called "little dove" and "bird" too, and some birds are known to "sing" as well. So it makes sense that Sansa is part of the "song" along with the "ice" aspect of the series. I really like the way you said "communion with the snowflakes" - Bran, Robb, and Jon all have parallel "snowflake moments" too.

Exactly... The Starks are rising again...Winter is Coming, and it was never a warning, it´s a warcry!

[Alia of the knife]

Let´s remember that GRRM himself said that Old Nan´s belief about the others is wrong, Others are not dead, they´re beautiful, dangerous...think the Sidhe made Ice.

Thats a great observation.

Do you think they are wholly evil, or could they be a symptom of an imbalance between man and nature just as the dragons may not necessarily be a force for good?

Also love the fact that "Winter is Coming" is a battle cry.

[Profion]

I do think that Others can be good and can be evil... exactly like Humans or the Sidhe in the Celtic mythology. The Thing is, most sidhe´s don´t like humans, because humans destroy everything... wich could be the cause of war between Others x Humans.

[Greenfyre]

Let´s remember that GRRM himself said that Old Nan´s belief about the others is wrong, Others are not dead, they´re beautiful, dangerous...think the Sidhe made Ice.

True, but he said that to a comics artist who needed to know what they should look like. He didn't mean to suggest they are Sidhe-like creatures from an alternate dimension.

It strikes me as very implausible you're ever going to see kindly, thoughtful Others who pat children on the head and buy cheese in a shop. They are ruthless and nasty, and ride dead horses dragging intestines behind them. In the two scenes we've been shown featuring them, their standout act was to murder people. In the first instance, they did it while mocking the victim.

I do like the idea of Sansa restoring Winterfell, and symbolism from the snow-castle scene... but it doesn't seem at all likely simply because she's female and so there appears no likely way for her to have personal control over it.

Either a Stark such as Rickon will inherit it, or a legitimized Jon, or the remote possibility it will be a husband of Sansa.

[heathers]

:bowdown: :bowdown: PROFION: :agree:

We all seem to have come to a consensus regarding Sansa's future role in the song of ice and fire. The Queen of Winter!

Sansa is often called "little dove" and "bird" too, and some birds are known to "sing" as well. So it makes sense that Sansa is part of the "song" along with the "ice" aspect of the series. I really like the way you said "communion with the snowflakes" - Bran, Robb, and Jon all have parallel "snowflake moments" too.

I think the song of Ice and Fire will be a song narrated to us by Sansa at the end of the last book. Her attachment to the songs in GoT is taken away by the horrors inflicted upon her but maybe she regains an affection for songs just with a new spin on them.

I'm thinking she narrates the epilogue of how the battle between Ice and Fire turned out (or who is the blending of Ice and Fire). Sansa does not have to actually lift stone to rebuild winterfell. She may be an excellent diplomat and be able to reconcile the north and bring the stark family back together. She is often described as being like her mother and maybe that is her role.

[Alia of the knife]

I do think that Others can be good and can be evil... exactly like Humans or the Sidhe in the Celtic mythology. The Thing is, most sidhe´s don´t like humans, because humans destroy everything... wich could be the cause of war between Others x Humans.

Good point, and my thoughts as well.

Especially as you see the Norths Weirwoods scattered about for construction, (i.e, Harrenhal).