Winter Fell?

[Daenerys Flint]

Has anyone considered the story of the Grey King and Nagga as to how Winterfell works? (only makes sense if you believe there is slightly more to the 'hot springs' than meets the eye...) I think I have a few pieces of the jigsaw but not sure what order to put them in or if they are relevant to this particular puzzle... The Grey king defeated Nagga and used her life fire to heat his halls - he is said to have ruled for thousands of years... What if Dragons were originally seen as a fountain of youth? When the Grey King died... the "Storm God" snuffled out the fires and the "Drowned God" reclaimed the halls... (supposedly). But what if this is a loose, foreshadowing of Winterfell? It's hard to tell because little is said of any Starks dying of old age (but Old Nan seems to have a stupidly long life!?! - maybe she is the reference point as a non-Stark benefitting from the magical energy), but it could be the Starks are cursed... the life fires extend their lives but it may be that their lives are always prematurely ended... if the Starks defeated a Dragon (makes most sense to me as BR and CotF make several references to how Ice is equal to Fire - I assume it must have therefore been tried and tested at some point?) and enslaved it's magic... then that might explain the Ice vs Fire stuff and all the hatred. If this is tied in with - "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" - then we could possibly argue that the drowned god did reclaim the halls of Winterfell (Ironborn invading / Brans vision) - and the Storm God did snuff out the life fires - possibly why the cold storm originates from the south (good catch btw redriver) and why the halls are now cold. A side-effect of the life-fires could be 'ghosts'... dead coming back to life... a bit like Harrenhall, Valyria etc.. where we hear a lot about dragons / fire and ghosts... so this could be why the iron swords are needed in the crypts, and why the iron-born are important as their lands are rich in iron and they know about life fires etc... hence their words "what is dead may never die" (I think some stuff does obviously proper-die, but from experience the Ironborn know that it is possible to defy death... hence the use of the word "may"). Its quite cool anyway if the Starks do have hot-springs - a bit like geo-thermal energy - a renewable source that fits with the Old Gods 'pro-nature' themes... but it always sat funny with me that the Starks are always depicted as 'cold' and in the first book Lord Eddard makes comments about how 'warm' the rain feels (in the south) and then drinks a glass of ice-milk, which for some reason reminded me of the Milkwater (which I tend to think of as a kind of magical road), but for me it seems odd the Starks being so cold are the only ones with a special heating system.

[redriver]

There was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth about Catelyn's speech about Jon Snow in episode 302.Though I'm not sure what the fuss is about.Really,I think it reinforces my picture of Catelyn,the dilemmas she faces and the decisions she makes.

She realized that wanting Jon dead was wrong,prayed to the Seven to spare his life in return for which she promised to love him like her own children.But she could not find that love,and therefore broke her promise to her gods.In her mind,this broken promise is the reason for the "horrors" visited upon her family.

A heavy burden to bear,but the idea of breaking promises with gods is one of the themes in the books and in this thread.

It makes Jon seem more significant in an overall way too.

[Moon-Pale Maiden]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, because I admit I didn't read all 12 pages of posts, but the word "-fell" as a suffix in Icelandic (and variants in other scandinavian countries) means mountain. When I visited Iceland, there were lots of places with "fell" in the suffix, so I assumed Winterfell meant "winter mountain".

Now, if that has any connection or meaning.. I'm not sure, but I thought I'd put it out there.

Edit: like Skaftafell national park in Iceland.

[Cabbo]

I had assumed that the hot springs were no longer effective because Winterfell had been shattered. The heat was in the walls, and many of those walls were torn down. You'd think he'd mention it, though. It would be a nice image of all the warmth of Winterfell bleeding out onto the ground. Anyway, the fact that the storm is coming from the south is either important or irrelevant and I doubt we'll be explicitly told which. Winterfell being the centre of the storm is either an unimportant atmosphere-building bit of pathetic fallacy or an important aspect of the narrative, and unless the tone shifts towards the fantastical in these two remaining books it's not likely to be the later.

Then again, the fantasy elements have been growing and growing, so maybe he will go full on with it and have Winterfell become the seat of The Great Other, after the wall crumbles and the others claim it.

[Black Crow]

The hot springs are still there, still steaming away in the godswood, its just the central heating pipes which are knackered.

The Great Other doesn't come into it though - that's a project peculiar to Mel and the Red lot, who most assuredly do not have a monopoly on the way this story is headed.

[FittleLinger]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, because I admit I didn't read all 12 pages of posts, but the word "-fell" as a suffix in Icelandic (and variants in other scandinavian countries) means mountain. When I visited Iceland, there were lots of places with "fell" in the suffix, so I assumed Winterfell meant "winter mountain".

Now, if that has any connection or meaning.. I'm not sure, but I thought I'd put it out there.

Edit: like Skaftafell national park in Iceland.

The Bulgarian translator percieved it that way too, I think that also in archaic english fell means something like hill. But you know, it can also have a double meaning, yet I don't know if I fully buy that Martin meant it to mean anything else but a geographical term.

[bobbybuilderton]

There is also the use of fell as in "one fell swoop." Defined as an adjective meaning "of terrible evil or ferocity; deadly." So, a fell winter. Fits the Starks well known grim demeanor.

[King Tyrion VIII]

NENYA: GOOD CATCH WITH THE QUOTE!

I do not know if it has been theorized, but I suspect the roots of the weirwood have extended into and under the crypts, in the manner of the roots described in Bran's cave. Since Maester Luwin compares Winterfell to a tree itself, I perceive a symbolic connection, or actual joining, of the WF structure and the heart tree.

Another thing that MAY be contributing to the increasing snow fall, and this is mere conjecture, but the Stark crypts have been opened under the orders of Lady Dustin. Then, she and Theon ventured into the crypts - and in a way, they are invading a sacred Stark burial ground; I will even use the word "violate" the crypts - and the laws of hospitality - by entering the crypts without a Stark present. To me, it seems that the forces that are the old gods and/or the Stark spirits, may be punishing the Bolton gang who have invaded the Stark homestead under false pretenses. Furthermore, for the likes of Theon, the turncloak foster child of Ned Stark, to enter the crypts, well, that seems sacreligious to me. And if Lady Dustin despises the Starks as much as she claims - and even plans to make sure that Ned's body never makes it to his sepulcher, well, her presence in the crypts is not a good thing either.

Maybe the removal of several of the iron swords in the crypts also contribute to the advent of winter at the castle. If the dead Starks are part of the heart tree - or in the roots of the weirwood - then mayhap the unwelcome and unwarranted opening of the crypts has angered the dead Stark spirits. Moreover, with Bran part of the forces that are the old gods, he may be part of the Stark-inspired or -relaterd heavy snow fall?? Just brainstorming out loud!

Can I get a quote or page number of Maester Luwin describing Winterfell as a tree?

As to the end of your post, it may be that the old Stark kings were also greenseers and Bloodravened in their crypts and slowly went into the weirwood trees instead of dying and then being put in the crypts. Or in some other way they go from the crypts into the weirwoods through the roots. Perhaps the iron swords across the laps of the statues are a way to block this and keep the Starks in their crypts. Which makes me wonder what they can do, will do, and they have already done.

[Team_Rob]

i like this theory! I like it alot!

[redriver]

I had assumed that the hot springs were no longer effective because Winterfell had been shattered. The heat was in the walls, and many of those walls were torn down. You'd think he'd mention it, though. It would be a nice image of all the warmth of Winterfell bleeding out onto the ground. Anyway, the fact that the storm is coming from the south is either important or irrelevant and I doubt we'll be explicitly told which. Winterfell being the centre of the storm is either an unimportant atmosphere-building bit of pathetic fallacy or an important aspect of the narrative, and unless the tone shifts towards the fantastical in these two remaining books it's not likely to be the later.

Then again, the fantasy elements have been growing and growing, so maybe he will go full on with it and have Winterfell become the seat of The Great Other, after the wall crumbles and the others claim it.

I think we are likely to find out whether there's any basis to this.We haven't been told what Bran's mission is,aside from training to be a greenseer.But given the 3EC's warning that Winter is coming,I would say his mission is to do with this,with the implied threat of the arrival of the Others.

Under BR's guidance I think Bran will see this "threat" through the weirnet,as well as any significant events in Stark history.So part of his mission will be to help get a Stark back in Winterfell,using whatever powers are at his disposal,a small fraction of which we've seen as yet,imo.

He might also view the agreement of the Pact on the Isle of Faces.

Also,whilst I'm here some parts of the castle walls are leaking hot water,others are intact.

[Tyrion4President]

As has been discussed in Heresy,the Watch seem to elect Starks as LC's in times of strife,even electing a 10 yr old at one point.I think if the Watch fails to stay true the Others come,which together with the Winterfell issues,could mean a Long Night.

I didnt realize children could be sent to the wall. and which stark was 10 when he was elected? the one thing i never thought of was at what age are you tried as an adult in westeros lol

[bobbybuilderton]

I didnt realize children could be sent to the wall. and which stark was 10 when he was elected? the one thing i never thought of was at what age are you tried as an adult in westeros lol

Well nobody really said much when Arya and others were going there, and they're all pretty young. Doesn't seem to be an age limit to me.

[Snow Whyte]

I didnt realize children could be sent to the wall. and which stark was 10 when he was elected? the one thing i never thought of was at what age are you tried as an adult in westeros lol

Well nobody really said much when Arya and others were going there, and they're all pretty young. Doesn't seem to be an age limit to me.

Thinking about it, it did seem a bit odd, but recalling the bits of history of the Night's Watch that have been shared, being sent to the Wall isn't going to a wintery prison, but joining an honorable brotherhood. It's just that as memory of the "great threat" has dwindled, fewer knights and nobles have joined the Watch's ranks, while more and more, criminals have been sent away to the North. The Starks of the North remember best the Watch's honorable origins, so it makes sense that their sons might feel a calling or obligation to join the Night's Watch. Especially younger sons who wouldn't stand to inherit Winterfell. As for "Arry" and other orphan boys, they would be fed, clothed, and sheltered by the Watch, though their lifestyle wouldn't exactly be an easy one.

[Black Crow]

When Jon was recruiting Wildlings to man the forts he said he would take boys from 10

[redriver]

I didnt realize children could be sent to the wall. and which stark was 10 when he was elected? the one thing i never thought of was at what age are you tried as an adult in westeros lol

My lord,when I was looking through the annals I came upon another boy commander.Four hundred years before the Conquest.Osric Stark was ten when he was chosen,but he served for sixty years.You're not even close to being the youngest ever chosen.You're fifth youngest so far.

AFFC,Samwell 5

And,of course Mance was taken to the Watch as a boy.

[Profion]

Or he was some kind of prodigy, or a Stark as LC is really something worth it.

[tbc]

The hot springs are still there, still steaming away in the godswood, its just the central heating pipes which are knackered.

The Great Other doesn't come into it though - that's a project peculiar to Mel and the Red lot, who most assuredly do not have a monopoly on the way this story is headed.

Depends on who the Great Other is, if they exist at all.

[Beric Zoolander]

Re-reading Catelyn found another great quote about Winterfell itself, not sure if anyone posted it. I read everything in here but that was a while ago.

CATELYN II

The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man’s body, driving the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing. Open pools smoked day and night in a dozen small courtyards. That was a little thing, in summer; in winter, it was the difference between life and death.

Its just so interesting to me how important Winterfell the place seems to be in relation to everything snow and winter and cold related. It goes beyond just it being in the North, it seems to stem from before the history of Westeros to the First Men and earlier, a great power resides there forgotten like the Others were, something in the Crypts or something about that place will give protection when Winter does come.

The link between Brandon the Builder in WF and at the Wall says something too, they probably have similar magic in their walls to keep out the Others :cool4:

[MasterJack]

I didnt read all the posts, but, could it be that the Pink Letter was sent to Jon by someone aware of the "need a stark at winterfell" rule and choose his wording only to bait him?

sorry my english is bad.

[redriver]

I didnt read all the posts, but, could it be that the Pink Letter was sent to Jon by someone aware of the "need a stark at winterfell" rule and choose his wording only to bait him?

sorry my english is bad.

I think this is one of the motivations for Mance writing the Pink Letter,possibly in collaboration with Stannis.But whether alone or not I think Mance knows more of the esoteric lore of the north and Winterfell than anyone alive,aside perhaps from the current greenseer.Not only does he know ballads from Dorne to beyond the Wall,he knows and sings songs in the Old Tongue.

So I think it's possible he knows the importance of a Stark in Winterfell.The Bael the Bard song,which Mance seems to be reinacting to an extent, seems to back up the idea.He knows Arya if fake,having seen the real one in Winterfell.

In the text the only live Stark that Mance is aware of is Jon.He would also have been aware of the offer by Stannis to legitamize Jon and install him in WF,and Jon's ultimate refusal.He also witnessed Jon's rection to the letter informing him of Ramsay's marriage to Arya.

Therefore if he was to lure Jon to WF, he would have to ratchet up the emotional impact of a supposed Ramsay letter.The letter worked in that respect.