Winter Fell?

[JackinAcar]

When Ramsay sacked the castle,bringing Theon with him,he left it unclaimed,leaving squatters to move in.

Interesting point. There are a lot of established, living characters whose location cannot be assumed beyond a doubt.

[Conchobar]

Interesting thoughts! And a good read, I can't say I ever looked at it that way before.

[Varameera]

This is perhaps the best theory I've read so far. This has totally changed my vision of what will come.

[Dryhtscipe]

Never mind.

[First of My Name]

This thread is one clusterfuck of revelations. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, or else... Thanks to all contributers, I think we're definetely onto something. I wonder how GRRM would react if you asked him about this in an interview.

[Pelican]

In re-reading, I've been wondering if the agreement is two-part: that not only must there always be a Stark in Winterfell, but equally there must not be a Stark in the south. Every time we see a Stark marrying outside the North, things go bad -- Rickard betrothes his heir to a Tully; both he and the heir die. Lyanna runs away with a Targ; they both die, and their son isn't in great shape right now either, even though he "married" the North by going to the Wall. Ned marries the Tully; they both die and their children are cast to the winds, except for their heir, who married a southron girl and was killed. Maybe that's playing into why Winterfell seems so angry. [i think some long-ago maesters in the south didn't want Targs and Starks mixing -- maybe their worry was related, even through a misunderstanding of what the history actually was. (?)]

[sagaz]

[i think some long-ago maesters in the south didn't want Targs and Starks mixing -- maybe their worry was related, even through a misunderstanding of what the history actually was. (?)]

I've always tought something along this line was happening...I don't know about the maesters but imagine the mix of the Starks of old (wargs) and Targaryens (dragons), sounds to me as a "deadly" combo, without counting the mental instability issue.

Also I think Thorren knelt (and didn't fight) because he saw a potential weapon to fight the WW.

[Pelican]

We know that people kept books of lineage. The fear of a warg/dragon mix is a good idea. What we think of as genetics might have seemed more like human alchemy to the maesters, wizards, and sorcerors. Take a bit of this and that, add a comet and a volcano, mix well, and kaboom. [i'd love a look at whatever Rhaegar was reading that got him stirred up, the "Signs and Portents" pages, and maybe even Maester Luwin's notes on the comet -- he always seemed very interested in tracking it. Winterfell seems to have welcomed a d/w mix -- it always seems to be drawing Jon back.

[Dryhtscipe]

imagine the mix of the Starks of old (wargs) and Targaryens (dragons), sounds to me as a "deadly" combo,

I think someone asked in another thread the other day if it's possible to warg into a dragon. I still want to know if that's possible or not...

[bobbybuilderton]

I think someone asked in another thread the other day if it's possible to warg into a dragon. I still want to know if that's possible or not...

I would imagine it is, just incredibly difficult. Depends how wild the animal is and how strong the will of the warg is (see: Hodor and Bran). Plus Dany talked about never truly taming Drogon I think. And I seem to remember the same being said about a wolf. The best you can hope for is kind of a mutual understanding it seems. Some degree of control, but not complete.

[redriver]

Thank's folks for the positive comments and ideas.Yes,there does seem to be hoodoo on Starks heading south,going back to Robert's rebellion and the Tower of Joy and more tragedy.

I think the Starks are "weaker" out of Winterfell,just as Sansa in her snow castle scene feels "stronger" within it's wall.

Please keep the ideas coming.

[HopeForSpring]

So I didn't see this uptopic, forgive me if it is there, but there are lots of definitions of the word "fell"

Verb

Cut down (a tree).

Noun

An amount of timber cut.

A hill or stretch of high moorland, esp. in northern England.

Adjective

Of terrible evil or ferocity; deadly.

Verb (1) Winterfell - "to cut down Winter" or "to be cut down by Winter" (supports the either this is "where the Kings of Winter defeated the Others" or "where the Other's first attacked")

Noun (1) Where winter gets stacked up (Winter Kings in the Toumbs...) Reach...

Noun (2) Winterfell is a place on hill where it is cold.

Adj (1) Fierce and Terrible because of similarities to Winter? Evil... Heresy Thread... here we go...

[Ygritte]

First, remember this following theory as you read my evidence and commentary: According to the Wiki of Ice and Fire, a “stance” assumed by a lord withholding his hospitality to a visitor is removing his sword from its sheath and laying it across his lap, very much like the posture assumed by the dead Starks and Kings of Winter in the crypts of Winterfell. Does this mean that the depiction of the stone Starks send the message: you are not welcome? [Only Starks belong in Winterfell or [crypts]?

I have long been following the “laws of hospitality” motif in Martin’s series, which also is an important thematic device in Homeric myth and epics. For example, the cause of the Trojan War is sometimes wrongly placed on Helen’s shoulders; although Helen is besieged with guilt for her part in causing the war, the Atrides Agamemnon and Menelaus blame the Trojan Prince Paris who “violated” the sacred laws of hospitality when he abducted Helen of Sparta, taking her to Troy. It is not good form to “seduce” the wife of a host and then “kidnap” her, stealing her away to have for your own.

The Trojan War onset is similar to what we know of Rhaegar abducting Lyanna and raping her, according to Robert; this incident incites Robert’s Rebellion. I wonder then under what circumstances did Rhaegar “steal” Lyanna? Did Rhaegar violate the laws of hospitality in any way?

Oh, good catch. There have been a lot of discussions about where Rhaegar and Lyanna departed from, on their way to the ToJ. Maybe they did leave from Winterfell and it involved sneaking out through the crypts somehow, which would increase the Bael the Bard parallel too. And they might have left a clue behind them, like a note. ("R+L 4-ever" on the wall, ha!)

[Its Not So Littlefinger]

This is perhaps the best theory I've read so far. This has totally changed my vision of what will come.

Seconded, this is my favorite theory I've come across on these boards, very enlightening

[stanniswillwin]

Not sure if it's been said but when Old Nan is telling bran the story about the others she says something like " thousands and thousands of years ago , a WINTER FELL that was cold and hard and endless " this maybe evidence for the theory or just a coincidence .

I just seen it before and it reminded me of this thread which is one of my favourites by the way.

[stanniswillwin]

Also old Nan says " they were Cold things ,dead things that hated iron and fire" the quote goes on but old was referring to the others so if the hate iron I'm thinking that's why iron swords are down in the cripts beneath Winterfell.

Sorry if it been posted already but I've only read about half the pages of the thread

[CptSpaulding]

Finally finished reading this thread. A lot of well thought ideas. I have a few thoughts and questions of my own.

Several pages ago it was stated that Brandon "ice eyes" was Bran the builder. This was several generations later at the Wolf Den. Not the same guy.

Why do people think the Nights King is in the crypts at winterfell? I am not saying he wasn't a Stark(very prob he was). Did his brother bring back his bones after killing him? I will admit I am in the NK=coldhands camp but I could be wrong.

On the sword Ice. The name is much older which leads me to believe that the was an original Ice. I assumed that the Starks were in possession of an Ice sword similar to that used by the Others. This could fit with the pact theory and winter fell (others defeated - I have their Ice sword). Because of ice and fire balance if AA has a fiery sword shouldn't some one wield an ice sword?

I have more but I do not want to ramble on for to long.

[redriver]

Finally finished reading this thread. A lot of well thought ideas. I have a few thoughts and questions of my own.

Several pages ago it was stated that Brandon "ice eyes" was Bran the builder. This was several generations later at the Wolf Den. Not the same guy.

Why do people think the Nights King is in the crypts at winterfell? I am not saying he wasn't a Stark(very prob he was). Did his brother bring back his bones after killing him? I will admit I am in the NK=coldhands camp but I could be wrong.

On the sword Ice. The name is much older which leads me to believe that the was an original Ice. I assumed that the Starks were in possession of an Ice sword similar to that used by the Others. This could fit with the pact theory and winter fell (others defeated - I have their Ice sword). Because of ice and fire balance if AA has a fiery sword shouldn't some one wield an ice sword?

I have more but I do not want to ramble on for to long.

The Night's King in the Crypts is more a theory of mine than a firm belief.It's pretty likely he was a Stark,but one who was known for atrocities,sacrificing to the Others and giving his soul to what appears to be a female Other.

His brother,the Stark in Winterfell and Joramun caused his "downfall".Even if they did kill him,could they be sure his spirit would not return?I would have thought they wanted to "ward" his spirit to make sure he never returned.So I suggest he is in the lower levels of the WF crypts and strongly warded (possibly using obsidian),the Other's kryptonite.This,I think was where the practice of warding deceased Kings and Lords began.

Jon's recurring crypt dreams indicate that there is something very scary down there and his dreams seem to foreshadow his destiny to find out what that is.

Another option for the original Ice is that it was made of obsidian.In Valyrian it means "frozen fire",and of course in order to defeat the Others in the first place,they would have to have used obsidian.As far as I can tell the Others swords melt too when they are killed.

I agree that Ice Eyes was not Bran the Builder.By the way,I suspect that due to it's volcanic activity,Winterfell could be a natural repository of obsidian,deep down.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

I did not catch the part where there was a storm coming from the south at the wall, nice one. I would like to add to this that the slain Starks are put in shackles/bound in their tombs, I cannot recall where this is mentioned, though to me it seems to have something to do with the "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell".

They're supposed to be bound to their tomb by the sword held by their statue.

[chris999]

I think the passage in my signature is quite telling...