Dark Sister, Blackfyre, Brightroar, et al.: Revealed in WoW?

[The Bastard's Bastard]

I have a question though and i may make a post about it: Why did some of the the great houses of Westeros have Valyrian steel swords pre Aegons conquest?

I am of the belief that Dragonsteel = Valyrian Steel. This could justify the reason why the great houses have them. So when the Long Night decends these ceremonial/super swords can be used to fight the others.

Valyrian steel was also in high regard due to it's lightness and sharpness. It's the best stuff money can buy...

And yes valyrian steel is dragonsteel. And indeed they're the ancestral weapons which were used to fight the white walkers.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Aye, Dawn is at Starfall waiting for the next sword of the morning...

Or is it? We don't really know. Just because Starfall was Dawn's last known location doesn't mean that it is its current one.

The only one that matters would be Blackfyre, which holds significance for Aegon's legitimacy.

And Dawn. IMO, Dawn will turn out to be the most important sword of them all.

Bastards dont inherit anything. Daenerys is the heir or Aegon if he's really a Targaryen.

Well, I think that in this case, blood will have more importance than legitimacy. Also, it is not impossible that Jon would turn out to be a trueborn. After all, Rhaegar wouldn't be the first Targaryen to have multiple wives.

I have a question though and i may make a post about it: Why did some of the the great houses of Westeros have Valyrian steel swords pre Aegons conquest?

And yes valyrian steel is dragonsteel. And indeed they're the ancestral weapons which were used to fight the white walkers.

That's not entirely true. Ned Stark's Ice, for example, was purchased by the family 400 years before Robert's reign. Interestingly, the name actually predates the blade itself. According to the wiki, it is a legacy from the Age of Heroes. Which means that the Ice Bran The Builder (probably) wielded is not the same sword that was used for the beheading of Eddard.

As to the why - prestige might be one of the reasons. By the time the Starks bought the Valyrian steel Ice, the Mormonts had already had Longclaw for about a hundred years. Besides, at the time of purchase, Valyrian steel was the best thing money could buy. It stands to reason that the Freehold would've traded it, and with great profit.

Another reason might be that the material had similar qualities to dragonsteel. IMO the alloy that became knows as Valyrian steel was actually an attempt to replicate dragonsteel, which I think predates Valyria.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Or is it? We don't really know. Just because Starfall was Dawn's last known location doesn't mean that it is its current one.

GRRM has said that Dawn is at Starfall. It is in the SSM section, but I don't want to spend the next hour looking for it again. I know because when I got to the boards someone killed a theory of mine with it.

[The Bastard's Bastard]

Or is it? We don't really know. Just because Starfall was Dawn's last known location doesn't mean that it is its current one.

And Dawn. IMO, Dawn will turn out to be the most important sword of them all.

Well, I think that in this case, blood will have more importance than legitimacy. Also, it is not impossible that Jon would turn out to be a trueborn. After all, Rhaegar wouldn't be the first Targaryen to have multiple wives.

That's not entirely true. Ned Stark's Ice, for example, was purchased by the family 400 years before Robert's reign. Interestingly, the name actually predates the blade itself. According to the wiki, it is a legacy from the Age of Heroes. Which means that the Ice Bran The Builder (probably) wielded is not the same sword that was used for the beheading of Eddard.

As to the why - prestige might be one of the reasons. By the time the Starks bought the Valyrian steel Ice, the Mormonts had already had Longclaw for about a hundred years. Besides, at the time of purchase, Valyrian steel was the best thing money could buy. It stands to reason that the Freehold would've traded it, and with great profit.

Another reason might be that the material had similar qualities to dragonsteel. IMO the alloy that became knows as Valyrian steel was actually an attempt to replicate dragonsteel, which I think predates Valyria.

What if dragonsteel is valyrian steel worked with dragonfire..? The valyrian smiths of old could have bound the magical properties of dragonfire into the steel with spells and sorcery, hence the name dragonsteel and the power to vanquish The Others.

[TheCrannogDweller]

GRRM has said that Dawn is at Starfall. It is in the SSM section, but I don't want to spend the next hour looking for it again. I know because when I got to the boards someone killed a theory of mine with it.

Ok, I admit I didn't check that information. Thanks for the tip. :)

What if dragonsteel is valyrian steel worked with dragonfire..? The valyrian smiths of old could have bound the magical properties of dragonfire into the steel with spells and sorcery, hence the name dragonsteel and the power to vanquish The Others.

Yes, but the Others predate Valyria. And if the Others and the Dragons are the polar opposites, then the dragons predate Valyria as well. Therefore, dragonsteel would logically have to be the older term, with Valyrian steel being an attempt by the Freehold's smiths to restore that knowledge and material.

[The Great Cornholio!]

Dragon's predate Valryia. Check

Dragon's and others polar oposites. Negative.

The Dragon's are clearly animals. The Others seem capable of thought and strategy.

[Lord Damian]

What I wonder is whether or not these swords are somewhere in an area of the RedKeep, or Dragonstone that has not been excavated.

[aryagonnakill]

Dragon's predate Valryia. Check

Dragon's and others polar oposites. Negative.

The Dragon's are clearly animals. The Others seem capable of thought and strategy.

They are definitely polar opposites. Dragons are fire made flesh we've been told that several times and White Walkers are ice made flesh we saw that when the one Sam killed melted.

[The Great Cornholio!]

They are definitely polar opposites. Dragons are fire made flesh we've been told that several times and White Walkers are ice made flesh we saw that when the one Sam killed melted.

Thats like saying water and ice are polar opposites. or paper or plastic.

They have opposite natures, but I dont believe one was made to balance the other.

[aryagonnakill]

Thats like saying water and ice are polar opposites. or paper or plastic.

They have opposite natures, but I dont believe one was made to balance the other.

ice and fire is not the same thing as ice and water, not even close. I see what your saying about how they behave not being the same, but the title of the series is a song of ice and fire.

[sentence]

http://www.westeros....Many_Questions2

4- Did the Targaryens own a family sword made of Valyrian steel, like Ice or Brightroar or Longclaw?

Several.

And if yes, what was it named and what happened to it - Rhaegar had it on the Trident, maybe?

The most famous of them was named Blackfyre. It was long lost by Rhaegar's day, however.

Or, if you can't tell right now, will we find out about it in a later book?

Yes

[Lady Dragon]

GRRM has said that Dawn is at Starfall. It is in the SSM section, but I don't want to spend the next hour looking for it again. I know because when I got to the boards someone killed a theory of mine with it.

SSM (dated Jan 1, 2002) regarding Dawn:

"What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?"

"Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise."

http://www.westeros....elated_Subjects

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

http://www.westeros....Many_Questions2

4- Did the Targaryens own a family sword made of Valyrian steel, like Ice or Brightroar or Longclaw?

Several.

And if yes, what was it named and what happened to it - Rhaegar had it on the Trident, maybe?

The most famous of them was named Blackfyre. It was long lost by Rhaegar's day, however.

Or, if you can't tell right now, will we find out about it in a later book?

Yes

Awesome. That means Blackfyre will almost surely be wielded by Aegon and then whoever kills him.

[Despot]

Well, I hope we will get to see all famous swords which are mentioned up to now. I'm almost certain that we will see Blackfyre ( because I agree with the guess that Golden Company has it, and will give it to Aegon at some point).

Unfortunately, I'm not so sure about Dark sister. Neither for Dawn. The first is, most probably, with Bloodraven at the cave, but who knows what will happen with that line of story ; the second is at Starfall, but it needs a Sword of a morning to wield it - and , unfortunately, I am not sure that another Sword of the morning shall arise on time ( Arthur is dead, Edric is too young. I'm not even considering Darkstar, because, for start, he is from another branch of Daynes, and that alone should be enough to prevent him to be a wielder of Dawn).

Certainly, I hope that I'm wrong and that both swords will show up.

Also, I'm very curious about other Valyrian swords (and blades, generally) which aren't mentioned by the name up to now. Because, we know for just 10 or something Valyrian swords, but Tyrion said at one point that there are couple hundred of Valyrian blades at Westeros; I presume some of those are swords, so there should be more of them. After all, we heard about "Red Rain" and "Nightfall" at fourth book; so, I hope we will discover a few more in the next part of the story.

Concerning Ice : I don't think it will be reforged nor returned to Starks. Some deeds are irreversible at Martin's world - that makes it so real and dramatic. But, under the impression of "Heresy threads" on this forum, I came to another idea : That Starks will have another "Ice" at the and, (as they maybe had once) - blade of others, that somehow will fit them.

My apologize for any mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

Dark Sister could have been brought by BR to the Wall. Aegon V could have allowed that, as the sword was given to BR, making it his, and he brought it with him to the cave of the CotF where it is kept.

...

I think we will meet Gerion again, revealed to be the corsair king mentioned in ASoS and AFfC, and he may have found Brightroar, and possibly the first person to ever sail to Valyria.

I'm in agreement with the theory that Bloodraven took Dark Sister with him to the Wall, and took it with him to the cave. As I posted on the "Arya and Dark Sister" thread, I think Meera Reed will come into possession of it first [search function isn't working for me but there is a thread about it], but I think it will eventually find its way to Arya. Who better to have it?

It's just my opinion, but I think the corsair king is a total red herring.

Regarding Brightroar, it's a somewhat crackpot theory of mine, but I believe that the Crow's Eye robbed Gerion Lannister on his return from Valyria, and took Brightroar from him. Afterwards, he ripped the tongues out of his crew so they wouldn't be able to say anything to contradict his awesomely untrue story about going there himself. Yes, Gerion was one of the first people to return to Moria Valyria, but he never lived to tell the tale. Euron doesn't even answer/make a denial when the Reader questions if he every actually went there, which is enough to convince me that he never went, but he has enough loot from Valyria to make it appear that he did. Paying the iron price...not sowing...Euron's the maddest of them all, but he's still a Greyjoy.

I'm a big fan of the Bros' Eye, but even I have to admit that his Dragonbinder-Oldtown Sacking-marrying Daenerys plan is not likely to end in success. Still, he's the type of gamber/cheater who keeps more than one ace up his sleeve, and having possession of a fabled Valyrian steel sword would be a pretty solid plan for personal self-defense when all else failed. Victarion ponders the fact that he's never faced a man wielding a Valyrian steel sword, but I'm hoping that when he does it's in a deathmatch with Euron, armed with Brightroar.

[tbc]

Aegon will be carrying Blackfyre when he announces himself and raises the Targaryen/Blackfyre banner at Storms End. The GC are clealy fulfilling the purpose for which they were founded in invading Westeros to restore Aegon, and Blackfyre the sword will be part of that.

Not sure about Dark Sister. If BR has it in the cave, I can't see how it gets back to the Wall and to the Watch, as the only group member able to travel that far (Coldhands), can't pass under the wall. If it's already at the wall, it might make sense for it to be at the Nightfort, and having been left there by BR when he travelled north. But I don't think Maekar would have allowed BR to retain it having imprisoned him. Best bet is either lost, or hidden on Dragonstone.

[qixoticneurotic]

Bastards dont inherit anything. Daenerys is the heir or Aegon if he's really a Targaryen.

lyanna stark was abducted and bedded which makes her rhaegars wife by the ancient laws of the first men. jon is legitimate if r+l=j is true

[Stark bannermen]

They are definitely polar opposites. Dragons are fire made flesh we've been told that several times and White Walkers are ice made flesh we saw that when the one Sam killed melted.

Dragons are fire made flesh... The WW are flesh made ice ;)

[aryagonnakill]

I'm in agreement with the theory that Bloodraven took Dark Sister with him to the Wall, and took it with him to the cave. As I posted on the "Arya and Dark Sister" thread, I think Meera Reed will come into possession of it first [search function isn't working for me but there is a thread about it], but I think it will eventually find its way to Arya. Who better to have it?

It's just my opinion, but I think the corsair king is a total red herring.

Regarding Brightroar, it's a somewhat crackpot theory of mine, but I believe that the Crow's Eye robbed Gerion Lannister on his return from Valyria, and took Brightroar from him. Afterwards, he ripped the tongues out of his crew so they wouldn't be able to say anything to contradict his awesomely untrue story about going there himself. Yes, Gerion was one of the first people to return to Moria Valyria, but he never lived to tell the tale. Euron doesn't even answer/make a denial when the Reader questions if he every actually went there, which is enough to convince me that he never went, but he has enough loot from Valyria to make it appear that he did. Paying the iron price...not sowing...Euron's the maddest of them all, but he's still a Greyjoy.

I'm a big fan of the Bros' Eye, but even I have to admit that his Dragonbinder-Oldtown Sacking-marrying Daenerys plan is not likely to end in success. Still, he's the type of gamber/cheater who keeps more than one ace up his sleeve, and having possession of a fabled Valyrian steel sword would be a pretty solid plan for personal self-defense when all else failed. Victarion ponders the fact that he's never faced a man wielding a Valyrian steel sword, but I'm hoping that when he does it's in a deathmatch with Euron, armed with Brightroar.

Dragons are fire made flesh... The WW are flesh made ice ;)

Two very interesting posts. To the first, I absolutely love your Brightroar theory. To the second, interesting possibility but we don't know that for sure.

[tbc]

I'm in agreement with the theory that Bloodraven took Dark Sister with him to the Wall, and took it with him to the cave. As I posted on the "Arya and Dark Sister" thread, I think Meera Reed will come into possession of it first [search function isn't working for me but there is a thread about it], but I think it will eventually find its way to Arya. Who better to have it?

It's just my opinion, but I think the corsair king is a total red herring.

Regarding Brightroar, it's a somewhat crackpot theory of mine, but I believe that the Crow's Eye robbed Gerion Lannister on his return from Valyria, and took Brightroar from him. Afterwards, he ripped the tongues out of his crew so they wouldn't be able to say anything to contradict his awesomely untrue story about going there himself. Yes, Gerion was one of the first people to return to Moria Valyria, but he never lived to tell the tale. Euron doesn't even answer/make a denial when the Reader questions if he every actually went there, which is enough to convince me that he never went, but he has enough loot from Valyria to make it appear that he did. Paying the iron price...not sowing...Euron's the maddest of them all, but he's still a Greyjoy.

I'm a big fan of the Bros' Eye, but even I have to admit that his Dragonbinder-Oldtown Sacking-marrying Daenerys plan is not likely to end in success. Still, he's the type of gamber/cheater who keeps more than one ace up his sleeve, and having possession of a fabled Valyrian steel sword would be a pretty solid plan for personal self-defense when all else failed. Victarion ponders the fact that he's never faced a man wielding a Valyrian steel sword, but I'm hoping that when he does it's in a deathmatch with Euron, armed with Brightroar.

1: Why would Maekar allow BR to retain the only Targaryen blade that remained with the House in Westeros, having imprisoned him in a black cell for several years, and sent Aemon to the wall for fear of further rebellions? Doesn't make sense. If it's still near the story, I'd suggest KL or Dragonstone as more likely homes.

2: Even if Dark Sister is at the wall (and I doubt it is), why would Arya get it, and why would she be the best recipient? She's a teenage girl who's training to be an assassin, whereas Visenya was a fully grown woman and trained warrior who fought in open battle. And even then, she's a Stark. It's a Targaryen blade, if it "belongs" to anyone, it's to Dany.

3: Valyria isn't comparable to Moria in the series. It fulfils the same role as Numenor.

4: Is there any indication that Gerion ever actually got to Valyria? And even if he did, why is he necessarily one of the first to do so? The Doom was centuries ago, and there are plenty of cities with more of an interest in Valyria who are closer to it.