Robb stark warg?

[Gendels Children]

I wanna say that all the Stark children have the same potential, but Jon and Rob were older and rejected the notion of magic, or didn't want to be branded as a warg. I never really understood Jon's reluctance to embrace it, esp in his time amongst the wildlings where the ability is somewhat respected, perhaps even revered. I thought for sure part of the reason his arc put him w/ the wildlings was to get some special training from varamyr or someone like Borroq. It would have been cool if he could overcome and tame Orrell's eagle, with Orell inside, to show how powerful whe was becoming... but of course GRRM surprises me, yet again.

Robb and Jon are the two Stark children with the most weight on their shoulders, they have larger issues and are forced to be more mature due to their age, they may feel such things a like 'magic' connections to their pets was something childish and a distraction from the responsibilities at hand, or at least that's what I have always though. its true there was a good chance for Jon to learn more during his time with the wildling but again he had a lot on his plate at that time. maybe GRRM has the intention of having Jon learn more in the future, as it would seem due to recent circumstances involving Jons life and the most common theories involving Melisandres vision of Jon as MAN then WOLF then MAN again

[Gendels Children]

ROBB AND GREY WIND: WARG CONNECTION?

AGOT Bran V Book 1, Chapter 38

"Still . . . the honor of the north is in my hands now. When our lord father took his leave of us, he told me to be strong for you and for Rickon. I'm almost a man grown, Bran."

I have been taxing my mind about this theory wherein Martin MAY BE suggesting through dialogue, action, and reaction that Robb Stark and Grey Wind are bonding. Robb may even be deriving his inner and outer strength from his connection to his direwolf. [i am merely kicking this around – I am not sure if I have even convinced myself].

• DIALOGUE
  

We know through Bran’s POV’s the progression of having wolf dreams and then eventually opening the third eye to “consciously” warg a beast other than through dreams. Martin details Bran’s heightened sensory awareness in his wolf dreams where Bran smells the earth and tastes the blood through Summer. I “speculate” that maybe Robb is already “informed” of the bond between direwolf and owner, evident in the following passage:

“Bran looked around for the direwolves. Both had vanished into the wood. "Did you hear Summer howling last night?"

"Grey Wind was restless too," Robb said. His auburn hair had grown shaggy and unkempt, and a reddish stubble covered his jaw, making him look older than his fifteen years. "Sometimes I think they know things . . . sense things . . . " Robb sighed. "I never know how much to tell you, Bran. I wish you were older."

"I'm eight now!" Bran said. "Eight isn't so much younger than fifteen, and I'm the heir to Winterfell, after you."

"So you are." Robb sounded sad, and even a little scared. "Bran, I need to tell you something. There was a bird last night. From King's Landing. Maester Luwin woke me."

• Bran and Robb agree that the direwolves have been “restless” for they have been howling through the night. However, Robb is the one who offers a “reason” for the howling: Robb says “restless”. If Grey Wind and Robb mirror one another, then might Robb feel “restless” as well? Robb is carrying the honor of the north on his shoulders, so he may feel “restless” as he bides his time, waiting for when he will need to act!
  
• Martin describes Robb’s “grooming” as lacking; however his “shaggy” hair and the “unkempt”, “reddish stubble” covering his jaw suggests a “wolfish” appearance. I propose that Robb may take on the “appearance” of his wolf when Martin attends to discussing the young lord’s hair and beard.
  
• Bran thinks Robb’s “grunge” look makes him look older than his fifteen years.
  
• Most importantly in this passage is Robb’s next line, which is in context to Bran and Robb discussing their direwolves’ restless behavior: "Sometimes I think they know things . . . sense things . . . " Robb sighed.
  
• Robb acknowledges the direwolves’ perception, mentioning that they “sense” things through their animal instincts. We have seen Summer alerting Bran to danger when he decides to go climbing. Summer and the other direwolves “sang” throughout Bran’s coma, and Maester Luwin wanted the window kept open so that Bran could hear his wolf and the others: the direwolf was enabling Bran’s heart to beat stronger. Robb witnesses this connection between Bran and his wolf. It stands to reason that Robb is also experiencing connections of himself and Grey Wind.
  
• With Ghost at his side, Jon Snow has the strength to challenge Ser Alliser Thorne. He even has the strength to “face down” Catelyn when he says farewell to Bran. Likewise, Robb may be experiencing similar “connections” with his wolf Grey Wind.
  
• We have speculated that the “wolf connection” may be brought on by especial challenges facing the Stark children. Jon’s relationship with Ghost grows deeper when they are at the Wall together and Ghost is Jon’s only friend and ally. Jon’s loneliness and feelings of alienation assist to build the framework of Jon and Ghost’s subsequent warg connection. Likewise, Robb has had power thrust upon him. He must fill his father’s shoes as lord of Winterfell, and he must also attend to the needs of his crippled brother and baby brother run wild, Rickon. I can see Robb finding comfort in Grey Wind, even crying into his grey fur the way Jon cries into Ghost’s white fur.
  
• "I never know how much to tell you, Bran. I wish you were older."
  
• When Robb says this, in context with the discussion of the wolves, “I never know how much to tell you, Bran” – I speculate that maybe Robb is referring to “something” about his relationship with Grey Wind. He seems to want to share “something” with Bran about the wolves and the way the wolves “know things”.
  
• Robb’s words suggest that he misses Jon’s companionship as well, especially when he qualifies his statement with “I wish you were older” JUST LIKE JON. Yes, I think Robb is missing Jon’s confidences, opinions, and advisements. Theon Greyjoy is a poor substitute as “brother” to Robb. I must say Catelyn does Robb a grave injustice when she sends Jon to the Wall. Had Jon been present to help Robb deal with the burdens thrust upon him, the outcome may have been a little different.
  
• Now, Robb’s statement can also relate to the news Robb discloses to Bran concerning the raven from King’s Landing the night before.
  

• ACTIONS
  

In the following actions performed by Robb, Martin “maybe” revealing that a pre-warging connection is occurring between Robb and Grey Wind, demonstrated by Robb’s uncanny physical strength; if Bran can grow “stronger” physically through his connection to Summer, then maybe Robb is gathering strength through Grey Wind that allows him to lift an elk unaided and hoist the corpse over his gelding’s back.

Robb leaves Bran alone to check out the kill that the direwolves have made.

Robb says specifically to Bran that he will locate the direwolves “faster by myself”, which indicates to me that Robb is not in the company of others when he locates the direwolves and their kill: "I'll find them faster by myself." Robb spurred his gelding and vanished into the trees.

Robb returns to find Bran surrounded by two women and four men who are threatening him, demanding that Bran hand over his silver pin.

"Put down your steel now, and I promise you shall have a quick and painless death," Robb called out.

Bran looked up in desperate hope, and there he was. The strength of the words were undercut by the way his voice cracked with strain. He was mounted, the bloody carcass of an elk slung across the back of his horse, his sword in a gloved hand.

Truthfully, I do not think Robb is gone any longer than fifteen minutes. When he returns, Robb has an elk slung across his gelding; obviously the direwolves took down the elk. Here are Martin’s words:

"He was mounted, the bloody carcass of an elk slung across the back of his horse, his sword in a gloved hand."

Robb is fifteen, and nowhere has Martin indicated that Robb has the superhuman strength of a Jean Valjean. How does Robb hoist a dead body of a rather large animal on the back of his gelding with no assistance? Martin does not indicate that the elk is a calf, and I am assuming it has a rack that indicates it is an elk as opposed to a deer, stag, or buck. Even yearlings are a good size – not easily lifted up by one person to sling over a horse.

The Wiki says the following regarding size and weight of an average cow and bull: “Elk cows average 225 to 241 kg (500 to 530 lb), stand 1.3 m (4.3 ft) at the shoulder, and are 2.1 m (6.9 ft) from nose to tail. Bulls are some 40% larger than cows at maturity, weighing an average of 320 to 331 kg (710 to 730 lb), standing 1.5 m (4.9 ft) at the shoulder and averaging 2.45 m (8.0 ft) in length.^{[19][20] . . .} The smallest bodied race is the Tule elk (C. c. nannodes), which weighs from 170 to 250 kg (370 to 550 lb) in both sexes.”^{[22] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk}

So, maybe Martin is “hinting” at a pre-warg bond forming between Robb and Grey Wind through Robb’s excessive strength?

Not only would lifting a dead elk be difficult, but horses do not easily accept the dead body of an animal on their backs unless it is quartered and packaged, or so my husband the great hunter tells me. He says the horse may be well trained, but that horses as a rule can give a rider some difficulty, like "not" standing still while a dead animal is positioned so that it will not slide off?

I also do not think Robb had time to gut and bleed out the elk, unless the direwolves only left "part" of an elk, and ate the rest????

Lastly, Grey Wind’s performance during the battle is impressive; he takes down more of the offenders than any other combatant. Likewise, Robb demonstrates his prowess as a warrior, and he and Grey Wind fight side by side, joined by a common cause. Robb’s aggressiveness during the fight mirrors Grey Wind’s aggressiveness.

Thus, through Robb’s actions, Martin may be suggesting that Robb and his direwolf are uniting symbolically if not literally, with Robb drawing from Grey Wind’s strength, his aggressiveness, and his “wolf” spirit.

• REACTION
  

The last piece of evidence that may point to the force that is the direwolves, or the force that sent the direwolves, the old gods with their instruments, is the LACK of REACTION in the horses Robb and Bran are mounted upon. When horses smell the blood, they panic, rear, and shy away – even RUN AWAY, with or without their riders.

Here is how Ned’s horse reacts to the blood:

“The horse moved closer, smelled the rank scent of blood, and galloped away” (384).

Robb’s gelding “allows” him to place the bloody carcass of a good-sized elk upon his back without giving his rider any grief. Thus, maybe through the direwolves and through the forces that are the old gods, the horses are beings “calmed” so that they do not panic and bolt.

Also, even though Martin describes the battle scene as a carnage: “The sixth man ran from the carnage . . . but not far.” – Bran and Robb’s horses remain unaffected by the blood and death around them. The elk stays tied to Robb’s gelding all through the bloody fight that even enters the rushing waters.

Therefore, in Bran’s fifth POV, Martin may reveal that Robb and Grey Wind are forming a bond that precedes the “wolf dreams” associated with the first warging experiences. Just as Summer’s link with Bran assists in healing Bran, somehow making his heart beat stronger, maybe Grey Wind’s bond to Robb is endowing him with physical strength, even mental strength, for Robb bravely confronts the cutthroats who dare to threaten his little brother.

Robb and Bran’s dialogue may suggest that Robb wants to confide “something” in Bran if only he were older. This “unspoken” something may be about the bond that Robb senses is forming between him and his wolf. Robb already states that the wolves “sense” things, and their howling through the night and their restlessness does correspond to the unpleasant situations for Starks at the Wall, at the Eyrie, and in King’s Landing. The direwolves can obviously sense, even from distances, the dangers that threaten the Stark pack.

AN: I presented the “elk” theory to the Heresy Thread and Small Questions. In Small Questions, a poster called the conundrum about the elk “sloppy writing”. On the other hand, Black Crow suggests that “others” not deemed important enough to mention follow along the royal party to assist with such things as “elk” take-downs by direwolves or by Theon, who was planning on getting a deer. [ironically, the direwolves get the “deer”!]

I am not sure about either. Martin does go to great lengths to name all the individuals participating in the outing, and the passage follows:

“They passed beneath the gatehouse, over the drawbridge, through the outer walls. Summer and Grey Wind came loping beside them, sniffing at the wind. Close behind came Theon Greyjoy, with his longbow and a quiver of broadheads; he had a mind to take a deer, he had told them. He was followed by four guardsmen in mailed shirts and coifs, and Joseth, a stick-thin stableman whom Robb had named master of horse while Hullen was away. Maester Luwin brought up the rear, riding on a donkey. Bran would have liked it better if he and Robb had gone off alone, just the two of them, but Hal Mollen would not hear of it, and Maester Luwin backed him. If Bran fell off his horse or injured himself, the maester was determined to be with him.”

• With Martin’s attention to detail, why wouldn’t he name everyone in the party, or give a general count of the party without the catalogue of names?
  

very VERY nicely done, :thumbsup:

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

Poor Sansa.

Thanks for making me feel super sad :frown5: :bawl:

[elanmorin]

It seems to me that all the Stark children are Wargs, which leave me to wonder about Jon. He's definitely a Stark. Indeed he seems more Stark than the others.

Yeah, he's PART Stark, everyone knows that, hell, Ned confirms it and it's repeated through the series that "he takes after his father" (much to Catelyn's anger and shame).

The real question is whose part is the other one... the one Jon does not immediately resemble...

[Stark Outlook]

i think its pretty clear that all the starks are wargs including jon elsewise their connection to the wolves wouldnt be as strong as it is.. but i think that most of them were either only partially aware of this or explained away the powers as dreams and such forth as its not all common knowledge.. jons and bran have been with their wolves the longest so the power is more developed but we get glimpses of it with arya too and had them with robb.

[Queen Elsa]

All the Stark children are wargs, as most people here have mentioned, but the amount of control varies. Bran is the most trained, Jon not fully embracing this gift yet, and Arya, even separated from Nymeria, still have their connection. I believe there are hints from the books that Robb and Rickon have this gift, too. Read Evita's post.

Poor Sansa.

Don't worry, she only lost her wolf but not the warging.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I fully believe we will see Sansa Warging in the up coming books. She might use it to spy on people, to learn there true intentions and figure out who she can and cannot trust.

[CerseisPimp]

The dreams are the evidence of his warging abilities. Did you guys read the books?

[CerseisPimp]

Sansa never showed any ability for being a warg, in the books or the show.

[Mikaele]

Robb is certainly warg and he probably did warg into Grey Wind right before he died.A major similarity between Rob's death and Jon's "death" is their final words. Robb said Grey Wind and Jon said Ghost. I'm a firm beleiver that Jon's mind and soul lives in Ghost while his body was killed, so going with that, it seems likely that Robb warged into Grey Wind while his body was killed and then was also killed again as a Grey Wind.

Sansa will have to show some warging abilities in order to reconnect with her Stark roots. The best way of doing that is through a direwolf, perhaps Nymeria (Even though I'm well aware that Arya still wargs with Nymeria). Sansa needs to gain her identity back and warging is her best way of accomplishing that.

[howardh51]

This made me think one of the saddest thoughts I've had about ASOIAF : if Robb was a warg, and warged Grey Wind, he actually had to die twice in a row, unless the wolf had died before Robb.

I think Robb says "Grey Wind" because he senses that the wolf was killed before they kill him...

[scurvy]

I think Robb says "Grey Wind" because he senses that the wolf was killed before they kill him...

I agree. I always thought he felt Grey Wind's death at that moment.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Robb was having wolf dreams but didn't want to admit it to anyone who wouldn't understand and/or misinterpret it as validation of the rumor that Robb was [essentially] a werewolf.

He was slightly more open with Bran. He probably would've confided in Jon had they been side by side, especially since they'd have been going through similar experiences. But his mom's family? His bannermen? His new southron in-laws? Forget it. They would never understand, they'd think he was weird at best or a warlock/werewolf at worst.

Can't have people thinking you're a mage when you're trying to be a general and a king and The Ned's son and heir.

Which is not the same as saying Robb was ashamed of or trying to repress the gift -- without him as a POV we can't really know if this was going on in his head or not -- just that he wasn't comfortable talking about it. Of course, it's a pretty unsubtle message to us readers that he literally walked into a fatal trap because he ignored Grey Wind's spideysenses and chained him up outside instead, because he was letting the Werewolf Chatter get in his head.

And/or he was trying to compromise with his enemies who just wanted him dead anyway. Dany, take note: this is why you were shown Wolfhead Robb in the House Of The Undying. Let The Dragons Fly.

Sansa never showed any ability for being a warg, in the books or the show.

Sansa's a political prisoner of people who actually BELIEVE the bullshit rumor about her brother being a werewolf, as it's their pet excuse for why his army keeps beating up their army, and in turn their excuse to beat and humiliate her.

And now she's literally pretending not to be a Stark at all (Alayne Stone).

Of course she's going to be in denial and/or keep her powers on the down low.

And really, without her wolf and without access to knowledge on the subject (like Bran and even Jon have been getting) she's not going to be able to understand it when it happens, yet. Or at least, not put it into words in her POV that we can easily identify as "aha! warging!" like when Arya has her "wolf dreams" which is clearly subconscious warging of her wolf because we've seen Bran and Jon do that repeatedly).

[Snow Whyte]

I think the Starks' relationships to their direwolves are some of the most fascinating aspects of the books. There are some interesting elements mentioned here about Robb's relationship with Grey Wind and implications for Sansa without her wolf.

I think Robb says "Grey Wind" because he senses that the wolf was killed before they kill him...

I agree. I always thought he felt Grey Wind's death at that moment.

Ah, I never thought of that. To me, that's somehow even sadder than the idea of Robb reaching for Grey Wind and dying twice.

Sansa will have to show some warging abilities in order to reconnect with her Stark roots. The best way of doing that is through a direwolf, perhaps Nymeria (Even though I'm well aware that Arya still wargs with Nymeria). Sansa needs to gain her identity back and warging is her best way of accomplishing that.

I'm not sure Sansa would ever warg Nymeria -- Arya and Nymeria are both alive and well, and still share their bond. The Varamyr prologue, I think, talks about the relationship between warg and wolf being like a marriage (fidelity 'til death parts them being the implication). I think the only way Sansa would be likely to slip into Nymeria's skin is if Arya is dead. Even then, the "personalities" of wolf and woman are so different, I'm not sure they could or would establish a connection.

Sansa's a political prisoner of people who actually BELIEVE the bullshit rumor about her brother being a werewolf, as it's their pet excuse for why his army keeps beating up their army, and in turn their excuse to beat and humiliate her.

And now she's literally pretending not to be a Stark at all (Alayne Stone).

Of course she's going to be in denial and/or keep her powers on the down low.

And really, without her wolf and without access to knowledge on the subject (like Bran and even Jon have been getting) she's not going to be able to understand it when it happens, yet. Or at least, not put it into words in her POV that we can easily identify as "aha! warging!" like when Arya has her "wolf dreams" which is clearly subconscious warging of her wolf because we've seen Bran and Jon do that repeatedly).

Some clever people somewhere on these boards have theorized that Sansa actually has done some baby steps in the field of skin-changing -- reaching out to the old dog at Littlefinger's keep, and even reaching out to the Hound, the way Bran first reached out to Hodor to calm him in SoS. Evidence being the Hound's reaction to Sansa's song and her remembering a kiss that never happened (though that could just be explained as faulty memory of a traumatic situation) -- due to her "sharing Sandor's headspace," as Bran did Hodor's. (Bran, of course, later takes control of Hodor's body, as well. But Hodor is "simple-minded," whereas the Hound has full use of his mental faculties. It would take a very powerful skinchanger to control a human with normal mental capacity and strong will, I would think.) If that were the case, Sansa would seem to have an affinity for dogs, which are tamer and gentler than their wolf and direwolf kin, much as Lady was the gentlest and most sedate of the Stark direwolves. In contrast, Arya has the rowdy, and later fearsome, Nymeria -- and she skin-changes with the cat in Braavos. Cats are more capricious and independent than, say, dogs, and thus trickier to skinchange, according to our Skinchanging 101 prologue. Sansa may yet come into her own WRT skinchanging, but it may be using other animals than a direwolf. I wonder if Sandor's nickname for her, "Little Bird" and her current association with the Eyrie and Arryn falcon heraldry may point to some avian skinchanging in her future?

Edited for a little clarity.

[Gendels Children]

"He was mounted, the bloody carcass of an elk slung across the back of his horse, his sword in a gloved hand."

Robb is fifteen, and nowhere has Martin indicated that Robb has the superhuman strength of a Jean Valjean. How does Robb hoist a dead body of a rather large animal on the back of his gelding with no assistance? Martin does not indicate that the elk is a calf, and I am assuming it has a rack that indicates it is an elk as opposed to a deer, stag, or buck. Even yearlings are a good size – not easily lifted up by one person to sling over a horse.

The Wiki says the following regarding size and weight of an average cow and bull: “Elk cows average 225 to 241 kg (500 to 530 lb), stand 1.3 m (4.3 ft) at the shoulder, and are 2.1 m (6.9 ft) from nose to tail. Bulls are some 40% larger than cows at maturity, weighing an average of 320 to 331 kg (710 to 730 lb), standing 1.5 m (4.9 ft) at the shoulder and averaging 2.45 m (8.0 ft) in length.^{[19][20] . . .} The smallest bodied race is the Tule elk (C. c. nannodes), which weighs from 170 to 250 kg (370 to 550 lb) in both sexes.”^{[22] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk}

So, maybe Martin is “hinting” at a pre-warg bond forming between Robb and Grey Wind through Robb’s excessive strength?

Not only would lifting a dead elk be difficult, but horses do not easily accept the dead body of an animal on their backs unless it is quartered and packaged, or so my husband the great hunter tells me. He says the horse may be well trained, but that horses as a rule can give a rider some difficulty, like "not" standing still while a dead animal is positioned so that it will not slide off?

I also do not think Robb had time to gut and bleed out the elk, unless the direwolves only left "part" of an elk, and ate the rest????

when re-reading ADWD I came upon something that reminded me of this,

In Mel chapter when the sun rises and the men of the nights watch find the impaled heads of the rangers Jon sent off, I found an interesting tid-bit that im sure others have noticed before but I thought I would add it in reference to you post here.

“No,” said Jon Snow. “They left their gifts in the black of night, then ran.” His huge white

direwolf prowled around the shafts, sniffing, then lifted his leg and pissed on the spear that held the

head of Black Jack Bulwer. “Ghost would have their scent if they were still out there.”

“I hope the Weeper burned the bodies,” said the dour man, the one called Dolorous Edd.

“Elsewise they might come looking for their heads.”

Jon Snow grasped the spear that bore Garth Greyfeather’s head and wrenched it violently from

the ground. “Pull down the other two,” he commanded, and four of the crows hurried to obey.

Bowen Marsh’s cheeks were red with cold. “We should never have sent out rangers.”

“This is not the time and place to pick at that wound. Not here, my lord. Not now.” To the men

struggling with the spears Snow said, “Take the heads and burn them. Leave nothing but bare bone.”

Only then did he seem to notice Melisandre. “My lady. Walk with me, if you would.”

So Jon (described as having a lean build, unlike Robb) is able to rip one of the spear from the ground on his own, where as four other men were 'struggling' to pull out the remaining two.... interesting

[Khal Shaggydog]

There is no doubt in my mind that the Stark children are all wargs. Bran and Arya already do it, Jon does it but barely realizes (Varamyr knows it instantly, and Jon recognizes the Boar dude immediately for a warg as well).

The Varamyr POV gives the most direct insight into warging, and how at death you can warg into a being. Robb either tried to get to Grew Wind, or knew of his death when he said it - I happen to think he knew of the death. I refused to believe Grey Wind was dead, until a couple chapters later when they reveal the part about his decapitation, and the show then backs it up (another topic for another day).