GRRM's greatest plot twist ever, (Spoilers Mate)

[Joant9922]

I think part of the success of the Red Wedding (from a literary perspective) is how it loads all the tension into the initial encounter between Robb and the Freys. Catelyn is very nervous that they're going to attack Robb out of hand, and the bread and salt Walder Frey gives Robb ends the tension.

Then Catelyn goes and does she rather humdrum errands; she visits the Maester to have a chat about Edmure's bride, she goes to her room and gets changed, he has a chat with some of Robb's bannermen. Then in the next chapter the wedding gets underway - with typical Martin description of the food and clothing - and nothing is telegraphed to be out and out wrong until after the bedding ceremony.

Then it all hits at once; it wasn't just designed to lull Robb and his followers into a false sense of security, but to lull the readers as well.

Completely agree with your analysis. The only thing that I would add is that, as the wedding is going, just after the bedding ceremony (or maybe even starting a little before?), when Cat starts describing the horrible musicians and the weird little things that happen, I had a feeling of "unpleasantness", you know? Not that I knew something bad was going to happen, but just feeling like this party was too loud, too racuous, too "weird", and that I didn't want to be in it anymore.

As you said, excellent writing by GRRM.

[Onar]

I think that Ned getting his head chopped off was the most surprising one, because it was the first book and you thought he was the hero and well you didn't know Martin, like you do now, so for me it was really hard to understand that he was actually dead. I was like: okay, so how was he saved? There is a loophole, right? I mean, who kills off a major character in the first book?

So, even if the RW was awful and had me cursing out loud, you kinda knew it was true after you read it, because well, it's George R.R. Martin and he just kills everybody and you already knew that!

I also found the one mentioned above, about Ygritte saying how they broke into the graves and released shadows in the wrold, really irritating as well! I mean seriously? The Others walk and Westeros is doomed, because freaking Mans Rayder wanted to bring down the Wall?! Oh, hell!!

P.S. First post ever! Really excited!!

[Logen]

Finding out that the Lannisters didn't kill Jon Arryn, and that Littlefinger convinced Lysa to send a letter falsely implicating the Lannisters to Ned and Cat.

[Starks Among Us]

so would that make the three heads of the dragon dany, aegon and jon?

[A Crow Come Over]

I don't understand the hate over DwD, its one of the best books of the series.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

For me it's the RW and Jon's "death". More Jon that anything because I identify with him the most. I think I actually cussed out loud when I read it. As for "not seeing it coming", no I didn't. When I read a book I am doing it to be entertained and enjoy it. I am not trying to find any clue and analyze every detail to see if I can know what is going to happen later. I would rather just read the story as written and trust the author to get me there.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

That's NOT a prophecy.

Call it a vision then. Her vision did not come true, yes the Griffon and Dragon were on the way to see her but they turned around because of the Lion.

[Starks Among Us]

Not really. I was coming up with R+L=J theories at the beginning of GoT long before I found this forum.

No. The biggest one will be if R+L=J is proven false. Either because Lyanna's promise was about something else since she never had a kid or because she did have a kid, but it wasn't Jon. Imagine the boards at that reveal.

Agreed.

[Starks Among Us]

Not exactly a plot twist, but when Igrette explained how the Wildings were responsible for letting lose the Others when they searching for Joroman's Horn, I wanted Jon to strangle her right then and there.

wait...what?

[jimmca]

Completely agree with your analysis. The only thing that I would add is that, as the wedding is going, just after the bedding ceremony (or maybe even starting a little before?), when Cat starts describing the horrible musicians and the weird little things that happen, I had a feeling of "unpleasantness", you know? Not that I knew something bad was going to happen, but just feeling like this party was too loud, too racuous, too "weird", and that I didn't want to be in it anymore.

As you said, excellent writing by GRRM.

I'd have to reread the chapter but I agree about the unpleasantness. It's an unpleasant atmosphere that corresponds to how the reader feels Walder Frey is unpleasant. Maybe it was just me but I underestimated the cruelty of the man. Up to that point, I felt he was a shithead and capable of treachery, but still kinda harmless. Things went beyond weird and into the dangerous when Roose Bolton disappears from the feast. The reader knows Bolton is treacherous at this point. We know Tywin has something in store for Robb off of the battlefield. And Grey Wind is losing his shit when he sees Freys. And...it all just sort of happens. Hell of a moment. I've never been more engrossed in any book as I was in that chapter.

[Starks Among Us]

Say what now?

"I wasn't frightened. You know nothing, Jon Snow."

"Why are you crying, then?"

"Not for fear!" She kicked savagely at the ice beneath her with a heel, chopping out a chunk. "I'm crying because we never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!"

[Vampire Squid]

"I wasn't frightened. You know nothing, Jon Snow."

"Why are you crying, then?"

"Not for fear!" She kicked savagely at the ice beneath her with a heel, chopping out a chunk. "I'm crying because we never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!"

That doesn't necessarily refer to the Others - no one else ever, I think, refers to them as shades or ghosts or anything like that. I always assumed she was just annoyed that they desecrated all those graves in vain and annoyed a lot of ghosts. (Besides, Mance was looking for the Horn because he needed a weapon against the Watch in order to cross the Wall and escape the Others, so they were already active by that time.)

[Starks Among Us]

That doesn't necessarily refer to the Others - no one else ever, I think, refers to them as shades or ghosts or anything like that. I always assumed she was just annoyed that they desecrated all those graves in vain and annoyed a lot of ghosts. (Besides, Mance was looking for the Horn because he needed a weapon against the Watch in order to cross the Wall and escape the Others, so they were already active by that time.)

I agree, but I know someone had mentioned that she was telling Jon this meant the Others were unleashed, there was a lot of "wait, what" so I thought I would supply the quote that I think that person derived that from. I know in ADWD there is a lot of references to "shades" but it seems to be more of a reference to ghosts/spirits than it does to the Others.

[MindLikeWarp]

If R+L=J is true, isn't Jon the true Targaryen heir? I mean we all know by rights the throne belongs to Stannis, but amongst the new usurpers, making a blood claim to a long desposed King, isn't Jon next in line?

[MindLikeWarp]

I think, for me, something unexpected is that Sansa is still alive, and is still felt by many readers, to still be a Stark and on her way to showing it even more in upcoming books. I would have thought that after Lady died, she would have either died soon after or would be on a path to being less Stark, more dark. I still look for signs that she isn't a Stark.

[JC Denton]

If R+L=J is true, isn't Jon the true Targaryen heir? I mean we all know by rights the throne belongs to Stannis, but amongst the new usurpers, making a blood claim to a long desposed King, isn't Jon next in line?

Rhaegar was never king, since he died before Aerys. The line would then pass on to Viserys .. since he died, it would pass on to Dany if you believe that a woman could hold the IT.

If you don't, it would depends on the age .. I'm not sure that Jon Snow is older than Aegon. Plus you would have to accept his assumed polygamous marriage to Lyanna as legitimate.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I thought that one of the best was when you found out that manderly will support Stannis.

This would be my choice as well. LOVED the conversation he had with Davos in the Wolf's Den.

[Son of a Harpy]

I still think that the Kingsmoot not being a vicious Gladiator-style battle-to-the-death but rather a more civilized, democratic process the biggest twist.

[Raksha the Demon]

I think that Aegon will either die and be revealed as having been, indisputably, the true Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Elia; or live and have a successful reign over somewhere with the reader getting indisputable proof that he is not Rhaegar and Elia's son.

Of course, GRRM could prove me wrong.

[MindLikeWarp]

Rhaegar was never king, since he died before Aerys. The line would then pass on to Viserys .. since he died, it would pass on to Dany if you believe that a woman could hold the IT.

If you don't, it would depends on the age .. I'm not sure that Jon Snow is older than Aegon. Plus you would have to accept his assumed polygamous marriage to Lyanna as legitimate.

Rhaegar was never king, since he died before Aerys. The line would then pass on to Viserys .. since he died, it would pass on to Dany if you believe that a woman could hold the IT.

If you don't, it would depends on the age .. I'm not sure that Jon Snow is older than Aegon. Plus you would have to accept his assumed polygamous marriage to Lyanna as legitimate.

True, thanks for clearing that up.