Official Court of Law v 8, Daenerys Targaryen

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

He promised Stannis eventually.

Though any popular character (even if there is a lot of hat for said character), will probably end up like Dany.

EDIT:

I don't want to see Jon or Stannis next.

I want to see someone like Bronn, or Davos, or Brienne.

Curious, of what crimes? I can see a few for Bronn (though I an obviously unbiased and objective source would find him innocent of the ones I can think of). But Brienne and Davos?

[Erudain]

Davos for treason? for smmugling Edric out of Dragonstone?......but yeah....would be pretty short trials with all the "innocent" calls

[Pod The Impaler]

Trials are to test accusations, not to seal up a sure thing.

I'm sure the thread-makers can come up with some of those.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Davos for treason? for smmugling Edric out of Dragonstone?......but yeah....would be pretty short trials with all the "innocent" calls

Smuggling Eddric is the only thing I can. The fact that Stannis pretty much approved it makes it kinda moot. Otherwise, any treason charge can be technically leveled at anyone in the current war.

[Petyr Baller]

Attempted murder of Melisandre

Conspiracy to murder Storm's End dude

Desertion at Blackwater

[TalalOfDorne]

Yeh, and even then he'd just be reborn as AA. The guy is unsinkable.

Sentence him to be handcuffed in his right hand to Queen Selyse and his left hand to Theon Greyjoy while being forced to read Ramsays letter 12 times a day and reminded of Ygrittes death 24 times a day.

Or something like that

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Sentence him to be handcuffed in his right hand to Queen Selyse [...]

You, ser, are pure evil. Eeeeeevil.

*shudders*

[StarkDragon]

Sentence him to be handcuffed in his right hand to Queen Selyse

Or sentence him to daily grooming of said Queen's beard.

[TalalOfDorne]

You, ser, are pure evil. Eeeeeevil.

*shudders*

Awwww thank you :devil:

[danm_999]

Wait a minute. If you genuinely want to present MMD as a healer who was intending to help Dany you need to deal with a few problems:

1. As a healer and blood mage MMD is well aware that Drogo will not be returned to Dany and that he will be left without a mind. She does not inform Dany of this. Why not? Because it is her purpose to trick Dany into the exchange and kill Rhaego, the stallion that mounts the world, I submit.

If this is your assertion, you need to explain why MMD gave Daenerys explicit advice beforehand that would impede the spell murdering Rhaego (specifically; don't enter the tent).

You also need to explain why MMD recommended that she help ease Drogo's passing, and only presented the spell option after Daenerys badgered her into an alternative. When Drogo got sick, Daenerys was truly, utterly desperate, so feigned reluctance is unnecessary.

Also, Daenerys entering the tent it based on a fight between a bloodrider and Jorah that MMD has no ability to predict, so your accusation hinges on MMD literally being able to see the future.

Compare to a physician in our experience who explains the risks of procedures and the likely outcome and I find MMD withheld a lot out of a deliberate intent to deceive which leads to 2.

As I have said, telling Daenerys that many prefer death to the sort of life Drogo will have outlines this situation.

2. When Dany, on learning of the death of her son, tells MMD, that she had believed that the stallion would pay for Drogo's life. MMD replies that that was a lie she told her self and this makes clear that MMD knew all along that saving Drogo would cost Rhaego his life.

She says the lie Daenerys told herself was that the horse would be sufficient to activate the spell. It's not clear what MMD needed, or who she needed, and there's no suggestion it had to be Rhaego. Again, MMD gives Daenerys specific instructions to not enter the tent during the spell, eradicating any reasonable argument she was targetting Rhaego.

It is not an accidental result of Jorah entering the tent but part of her design all along.

The events that led to Jorah carrying Daenerys inside the tent are completely outside of MMD's control.

3. The idea that the Great Shepherd killed Rhaego is one I fine wanting for any evidence.

It's not something that's true, it's something that MMD cruely says to Daenerys to explain why Rhaego died. It was taken as an admission of guilty by others as wrongdoing on MMD's part, when what she was saying was something akin to "it's part of God's plan".

MMD performed the blood magic that lead to his death, deliberately i believe, and to absolve MMD of blame here is the same as absolving Melisandre of blame for Renly or Cortney Penrose's deaths and blaming the Red God instead.

Ah, but Melisandre gave those around her specific instructions to facilitate those deaths. Specifically, she told Stannis to sail to Renly, and she told Stannis to have Davos smuggle her inside Storm's End's walls so she could strike at Penrose. That accusation makes sense because it's borne out of clear pre-emptive actions that explain how Melisandre planned to facilitate a murder.

MMD told Daenerys under no circumstances to enter the tent, that nobody living should come inside, but Jorah brought her in anyway because of factors outside MMD's control. You cannot make the case for pre-emptive motivation there.

[Lion of Judah]

If this is your assertion, you need to explain why MMD gave Daenerys explicit advice beforehand that would impede the spell murdering Rhaego (specifically; don't enter the tent).

You also need to explain why MMD recommended that she help ease Drogo's passing, and only presented the spell option after Daenerys badgered her into an alternative. When Drogo got sick, Daenerys was truly, utterly desperate, so feigned reluctance is unnecessary.

Also, Daenerys entering the tent it based on a fight between a bloodrider and Jorah that MMD has no ability to predict, so your accusation hinges on MMD literally being able to see the future.

As I have said, telling Daenerys that many prefer death to the sort of life Drogo will have outlines this situation.

She says the lie Daenerys told herself was that the horse would be sufficient to activate the spell. It's not clear what MMD needed, or who she needed, and there's no suggestion it had to be Rhaego. Again, MMD gives Daenerys specific instructions to not enter the tent during the spell, eradicating any reasonable argument she was targetting Rhaego.

The events that led to Jorah carrying Daenerys inside the tent are completely outside of MMD's control.

It's not something that's true, it's something that MMD cruely says to Daenerys to explain why Rhaego died. It was taken as an admission of guilty by others as wrongdoing on MMD's part, when what she was saying was something akin to "it's part of God's plan".

Ah, but Melisandre gave those around her specific instructions to facilitate those deaths. Specifically, she told Stannis to sail to Renly, and she told Stannis to have Davos smuggle her inside Storm's End's walls so she could strike at Penrose. That accusation makes sense because it's borne out of clear pre-emptive actions that explain how Melisandre planned to facilitate a murder.

MMD told Daenerys under no circumstances to enter the tent, that nobody living should come inside, but Jorah brought her in anyway because of factors outside MMD's control. You cannot make the case for pre-emptive motivation there.

Still bringing it I see lol, I should warn them to beware because you pack a punch with those arguments.

[danm_999]

Still bringing it I see lol, I should warn them to beware because you pack a punch with those arguments.

The trial isn't over! It's never over!

I LOVE YOU MIRRI MAAZ DUUR, I WILL REDEEM YOU!

[Lion of Judah]

The trial isn't over! It's never over!

I LOVE YOU MIRRI MAAZ DUUR, I WILL REDEEM YOU!

LOL classic character assassination!

[Ame]

Does the court allow "guilty with an explanation on all counts" finding or are we the jury restricted to guilty or not guilty?

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

We need an MMD trial. That will be interesting.

[Red Rain]

I think you should establish which law you are using I know for instance that no charges of murder could be brought against her for the crimes of meeren as it was not done under the Queens peace as a state of war existed between Dany and the slaver cities. sovereign immunity should also be taken into account interesting thread though suprised I haven't come across it before...

[the trees have eyes]

If this is your assertion, you need to explain why MMD gave Daenerys explicit advice beforehand that would impede the spell murdering Rhaego (specifically; don't enter the tent).

You also need to explain why MMD recommended that she help ease Drogo's passing, and only presented the spell option after Daenerys badgered her into an alternative. When Drogo got sick, Daenerys was truly, utterly desperate, so feigned reluctance is unnecessary.

Also, Daenerys entering the tent it based on a fight between a bloodrider and Jorah that MMD has no ability to predict, so your accusation hinges on MMD literally being able to see the future.

As I have said, telling Daenerys that many prefer death to the sort of life Drogo will have outlines this situation.

She says the lie Daenerys told herself was that the horse would be sufficient to activate the spell. It's not clear what MMD needed, or who she needed, and there's no suggestion it had to be Rhaego. Again, MMD gives Daenerys specific instructions to not enter the tent during the spell, eradicating any reasonable argument she was targetting Rhaego.

The events that led to Jorah carrying Daenerys inside the tent are completely outside of MMD's control.

It's not something that's true, it's something that MMD cruely says to Daenerys to explain why Rhaego died. It was taken as an admission of guilty by others as wrongdoing on MMD's part, when what she was saying was something akin to "it's part of God's plan".

Ah, but Melisandre gave those around her specific instructions to facilitate those deaths. Specifically, she told Stannis to sail to Renly, and she told Stannis to have Davos smuggle her inside Storm's End's walls so she could strike at Penrose. That accusation makes sense because it's borne out of clear pre-emptive actions that explain how Melisandre planned to facilitate a murder.

MMD told Daenerys under no circumstances to enter the tent, that nobody living should come inside, but Jorah brought her in anyway because of factors outside MMD's control. You cannot make the case for pre-emptive motivation there.

You did not address the main points though that MMD did not tell Dany what wold happen to Drogo or Rhaego.

The point is that she intends for Drogo to be mindless and that this statement is therefore false: "As I have said, telling Daenerys that many prefer death to the sort of life Drogo will have outlines this situation". She does not outline the situation, she gives vague hints and specifically avoids explaining to Dany what the outcome will be. Again I state that find it unbelievable that a physician would withhold this but then she is not acting as a physician here but an opportunistic blood mage taking out two of her enemies.

Dany turned to the godswife "You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse".

"No", Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price".

That makes it clear enough that MMD intended to kill Rhaego all along. Dany's stomach cramps came before Jorah took her into the tent, i.e. MMD had already begun to kill Rhaego in her womb. Taking her into the tent had the unintended effect of bringing the dragon eggs to life but MMD always meant to kill Rhaego. I don't agree that Dany realised this and I surely don't agree that Rhaego's death was an accident.

"You cannot make the case for pre-emptive motivation there." That's exactly the case I am making based on my original post and the above.

If there is any doubt I'll just point out the conversation between MMD and Dany.

"You knew", Dany said, "You knew what I was buying and you knew the price and yet you let me pay it..

Here Dany accuses her of knowing Drogo would be mindless and that Rhaego's death was the price for Drogo's "life".

"This was no god's work", Dany said coldly. "You cheated me. You murdered my child within me".

"The stallion that mouts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust." [MMD]

Means, motive and opportunity. Plus a confession. Open and shut.

If you really think MMD was acting in good faith :shocked: then I don't think we'll be able to agree.

[danm_999]

You did not address the main points though that MMD did not tell Dany what wold happen to Drogo or Rhaego.

Indeed I did. She informed Daenerys Drogo would be left in a state many consider worse than death. Daenerys chose to ignore this.

She need say nothing of Rhaego beforehand, because Rhaego only died as a result of MMD's instructions not being followed.

The point is that she intends for Drogo to be mindless and that this statement is therefore false

She intends for Drogo to have a peaceful transition to death. Daenerys rejects this option and tells her to keep him alive no matter the quality of life.

I mean seriously, blaming the 'doctor' in this situation when the doctor initially recommends you euthanise, and then tells you prolonging the life is not a good option, that it will be "hard and dark" is just ridiculous.

She does not outline the situation, she gives vague hints and specifically avoids explaining to Dany what the outcome will be.

It's not vague at all.

She tells Daenerys they should let Drogo die peacefully, and when pressed says it may be possible to keep him alive at great cost. That the way to keep him alive will be "hard and dark" and that death is considered by many to be superior.

I mean, I don't know if you've been in a similar situation with a loved one, but personally I can tell you doctors won't say things to you like "just kill your loved one, otherwise they'll be a vegetable", they use some modicrum of tact and talk of easing their suffering and how they would have no quality of life.

Again I state that find it unbelievable that a physician would withhold this but then she is not acting as a physician here

As I've said, no physician with decent bedside manner will spell out just how fucked up your loved one is going to be, they'll use coded language to try and impress upon you the futility of what you're doing.

but an opportunistic blood mage taking out two of her enemies.

But not Daenerys or Jorah? See, here's the other problem with the pre-emptive motive argument; at this point Daenerys is clearly running the show and making all the decisions. So if MMD is really trying to kill all these people, shouldn't this involve killing Daenerys too so she can't take some form of misguided retribution?

It's not like it'd be difficult for her. Daenerys has a miscarriage; she could easily botch her care and cause an infection or severe blood loss if she was so inclined.

That makes it clear enough that MMD intended to kill Rhaego all along. Dany's stomach cramps came before Jorah took her into the tent, i.e. MMD had already begun to kill Rhaego in her womb.

What? That was Daenerys going into labour. Probably a result of the intense stress and anxiety she was feeling at the time (mostly predicated on the fight between Qotho and Jorah, again outside MMD's control). And besides, Daenerys own recollection contradicts this idea Rhaego was dying outside the tent;

“My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent,” she said. “I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born.”

And if MMD is able to kill that remotely and efficiently, simply murder Rhaego in the womb from afar, I ask once again; why spare Daenerys? If she can kill an unborn in the womb with magic, surely she can cause an infection that would also do Daenerys in. Then she's off scot free.

If there is any doubt I'll just point out the conversation between MMD and Dany.

"You knew", Dany said, "You knew what I was buying and you knew the price and yet you let me pay it..

Here Dany accuses her of knowing Drogo would be mindless and that Rhaego's death was the price for Drogo's "life".

"This was no god's work", Dany said coldly. "You cheated me. You murdered my child within me".

"The stallion that mouts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust." [MMD]

Nice try, but let's quote the full back and forth without removing lines;

“You knew what I was buying, and you knew the price, and yet you let me pay it.”

“It was wrong of them to burn my temple,” the heavy, flat-nosed woman said placidly. “That angered the Great Shepherd.”

“This was no god’s work,” Dany said coldly. If I look back I am lost. “You cheated me. You murdered my child within me.”

“The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust.”

MMD is saying it was the divine retribution of the Great Shephard, not her own work. I suspect you clipped that line because it makes it look like a confession without it.

Means, motive and opportunity. Plus a confession. Open and shut.

There's no confession, and the pre-emptive argument makes little sense for several of the reasons I've outlined.

[Grey Guardian]

My opinion is that Rhaego's death didn't go into bringing Drogo back at all, but that he brought the dragons back from inside the eggs.

As for MMD, I'm not sure that she knew that Rhaego would be killed or not. Whether or not that was her intention though, I don't think she was too upset by it.

[the trees have eyes]

Indeed I did. She informed Daenerys Drogo would be left in a state many consider worse than death. Daenerys chose to ignore this.

She need say nothing of Rhaego beforehand, because Rhaego only died as a result of MMD's instructions not being followed.

She intends for Drogo to have a peaceful transition to death. Daenerys rejects this option and tells her to keep him alive no matter the quality of life.

I mean seriously, blaming the 'doctor' in this situation when the doctor initially recommends you euthanise, and then tells you prolonging the life is not a good option, that it will be "hard and dark" is just ridiculous.

It's not vague at all.

She tells Daenerys they should let Drogo die peacefully, and when pressed says it may be possible to keep him alive at great cost. That the way to keep him alive will be "hard and dark" and that death is considered by many to be superior.

I mean, I don't know if you've been in a similar situation with a loved one, but personally I can tell you doctors won't say things to you like "just kill your loved one, otherwise they'll be a vegetable", they use some modicrum of tact and talk of easing their suffering and how they would have no quality of life.

As I've said, no physician with decent bedside manner will spell out just how fucked up your loved one is going to be, they'll use coded language to try and impress upon you the futility of what you're doing.

But not Daenerys or Jorah? See, here's the other problem with the pre-emptive motive argument; at this point Daenerys is clearly running the show and making all the decisions. So if MMD is really trying to kill all these people, shouldn't this involve killing Daenerys too so she can't take some form of misguided retribution?

It's not like it'd be difficult for her. Daenerys has a miscarriage; she could easily botch her care and cause an infection or severe blood loss if she was so inclined.

What? That was Daenerys going into labour. Probably a result of the intense stress and anxiety she was feeling at the time (mostly predicated on the fight between Qotho and Jorah, again outside MMD's control). And besides, Daenerys own recollection contradicts this idea Rhaego was dying outside the tent;

And if MMD is able to kill that remotely and efficiently, simply murder Rhaego in the womb from afar, I ask once again; why spare Daenerys? If she can kill an unborn in the womb with magic, surely she can cause an infection that would also do Daenerys in. Then she's off scot free.

Nice try, but let's quote the full back and forth without removing lines;

MMD is saying it was the divine retribution of the Great Shephard, not her own work. I suspect you clipped that line because it makes it look like a confession without it.

There's no confession, and the pre-emptive argument makes little sense for several of the reasons I've outlined.

Let me ask you something that may sound offensive but it honestly isn't meant to be: Do you believe your own arguments?

Sometimes people adopt a position in debate and stick to it even if they know it's not credible - take any politician or PR spokesmen.

Because you haven't addressed the points at all and to pretend otherwise is sophistry.

MMD does not tell Dany that Drogo will be left in a vegetative state. That is pertinent information no physician would withhold. A woman is desperate to save her dying husband. She is close to being out of her mind with worry and is not able to deduce from MMD's vague hints that her husband will be brain dead. What she does worry is that her own life will be forfeit and MMD tells her that it won't be her life and says bring Drogo's horse. A nice bit of deception to hide that it is Rhaego she intends to kill.

It never is the horse's death that will pay for Drogo's life. She tells Dany afterwards that the horse was never teh price. So who's death will pay for Drogo's life? Who did she intend to kill? Answer that please.

You have a pretty fucked up view of how physicians communicate with the families of patients. They do explain the risks of procedures particularly if the family is requesting a risky procedure. Otherwise you end up with the situation where the wife, let's call her Dany, says when will he wake up and the doctor, lets call him Danm_999, says he never will and I knew he never would before I went ahead. That's bullshit and I sincerely hope you think about what you said because you'd be facing a medical malpractice suit and peddling your crap that you said it was "hard and dark" and she should have worked out what you meant would look pretty feeble when you were asked how you made it clear to a distraught relative. You say she did this out of "tact", I say you need to acquaint yourself with medical ethics.

Jorah or Dany? Why would she kill Jorah the Andal? He counts for nothing. He is not her enemy. This is a Lamb woman who sees her people constantly butchered by the Dothraki khals so it is them she strikes against. Drogo - the undefeated Khal - and his unborn son, the stallion who will mount the world. Dany is a woman - virtually valueless in Dothraki society and once her son is dead and there is no reason to kill her, particularly as MMD leaves her unable to bear another child.

Nice try? Sheez. I left out that line because I don't have a kindle and type as little as I feel is germane. I felt it was unnecessary to quote that as I didn't think you were serious about the great shepherd killing Rhaego rather than MMD.The key point is that Dany accuses her of knowing the price and the outcome, and then more directly of murdering her child within her. If as you claim MMD did not intend for Rhaego to die why does she not say this? Because the horse was never the price: the price was always Rhaego.

The angering of the great shepherd explains her motivation clearly enough - as does her vicous retort and cruel laughter to Dany when Dany claims that she saved her (none of which I'll quote due to length). But honestly, her revelation that the horse was never the price and her response to Dany's direct accusation that she murdered her son "The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust." really should make it clear enough.

Drogo should have died, yes. But MMD brought him back in a brain dead state at the price of murdering an unborn child. This is not the work of a phsician acting in good faith :stillsick: