Official Court of Law v 8, Daenerys Targaryen

[The Storm Queen]

1. Four Counts of Murder:-

1.1 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully killed a godswife, Mirri Maz Duur, by ordering her to be tied to her husband’s funeral pyre, and then burning her alive.

Not guilty; it was within her jurisdiction to do so. While I emotionally feel with MMD here, I cannot see Dany committing a crime in the sense of the law here (within the Westerosi context!)

1.2 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully killed Kraznys mo Nakloz, a citizen of Astapor by instructing her dragon, Drogon, to burn him to death, which instruction was carried out.

Not guilty;

1.3 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully ordered her soldiers to kill a citizen of Astapor, Grazdan mo Ullor, and to massacre the adult free male inhabitants of Astapor, which order was carried out.

guilty; the killing of the males over 13 is not genocide for me but definetly it goes beyond the usual Westerosi way of war and enters Tywin territory. High fine and short imprisonment

1.4 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully crucified 163 of the Great Masters of Mereen.

Not guilty

2. One Count of Genocide.

The massacre of the adult free males of Astapor, detailed in charge 1.3, amounted to the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group

No verdict; This one is tricky for me. I feel that she did not kill them due to their ethnicity, race, religion or nationality but due to the fact that they acted as pillars of an inhumane regime. She mostly killed the power elite; probably classicide

3. Four Counts of Torture

3.1 The burning of Mirri Maz Duur, detailed in charge 1.1, amounted to torture.

not guilty,

3.2 The crucifixion of the Great Masters, detailed in charge 1.4, amounted to torture.

not guilty

3.3 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully ordered two wineseller’s daughters to be tortured in front of her father, in order to procure information relating to the Sons of the Harpy.

guilty; high fine and short imprisonment

3.4 The Defendant, intentionally and unlawfully ordered numerous unnamed inhabitants of Mereen to be tortured, on suspicion that they were Sons of the Harpy.

no verdict; There is not explicit law in Westeros or Essos against torture plus it was a COIN scenario. But it also is terribly wrong.

4. Two Counts of Criminal Damage to Property.

4.1 The Defendant unlawfully and intentionally set fire to the House of the Undying in Qarth, resulting in its destruction.

not guilty; self-defense

4.2 The Defendant unlawfully and intentionally sacked the City of Mereen, resulting in millions of Dragons’ worth of destruction to property.

not guilty, there is no law (or convention) against it

5. Two counts of Waging Wars of Aggression

5.1 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully waged a war of aggression against Yunkai

not guilty

5.2 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully waged a war of aggression against Mereen

not guilty

I say a high fine and two years imprisonment

[Lion of Judah]

It's so funny when you can pick the Daenerys-lovers here.

Granted, and some haters. Dislikers, I'd say.

I actually see more people who are passing judgement in her favor backing it up with evidence. Some people are just passing a judgement and sentence which is cool, but it ties the hands of the other side if you want to discredit them.

[Lion of Judah]

The "Court" is intending to pass sentences up to and including death. I don't think you have to be a "Dany lover" to be a bit uncomfortable with this kind of absolute judgment often based on a few ambiguous lines of text.

But it would help if people posted their reasons. The flip side of the "lovers" are the "haters" sentencing her to death without any explanation. It seems a strange court where the charge sheet is taken as the evidence rather than merely the accusation :stillsick:

The charge sheet is not taken as evidence, it's just the charge sheet. We can't keep explaining that the interpretation of guilt or innocence is up to the individual judge not the court, the court is a facilitator. I understand that the lack of an argument when passing judgement sort of impedes the process, but we can't demand that you make an argument can we? If you read the OP you would see that presenting an argument is encouraged though. That way if another judge takes issue with your case, then they can challenge your argument. I believe it was agreed to that the sentencing would be discussed in another thread so any issue you have with that process you are welcomed to bring it up there. We're not against suggestions to making the thread better, at the end of the day however, know that it will never be a perfect process. So consider that before you take part and remember you're not obligated to take part.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I actually see more people who are passing judgement in her favor backing it up with evidence. Some people are just passing a judgement and sentence which is cool, but it ties the hands of the other side if you want to discredit them.

Problem is that every judge is biased, me as well. It's far more easier here, of course, since this is a forum. Both sides make arguments for their judgments, though, and the same arguments are used as in normal Daenerys-topics. It's quite funny to see.

[the trees have eyes]

The charge sheet is not taken as evidence, it's just the charge sheet. We can't keep explaining that the interpretation of guilt or innocence is up to the individual judge not the court, the court is a facilitator. I understand that the lack of an argument when passing judgement sort of impedes the process, but we can't demand that you make an argument can we? If you read the OP you would see that presenting an argument is encouraged though. That way if another judge takes issue with your case, then they can challenge your argument. I believe it was agreed to that the sentencing would be discussed in another thread so any issue you have with that process you are welcomed to bring it up there. We're not against suggestions to making the thread better, at the end of the day however, know that it will never be a perfect process. So consider that before you take part and remember you're not obligated to take part.

I think you misunderstood me.

I explained all my reasoning in my post. People are free to make their own judgments but it helps if they explain their reasoning.

What I was pointing out in response to a comment from another poster was that if they don't you have people returning a death sentence without any explanation - and that looks as if they have treated the charge sheet as proven facts rather than an accusation. Which isn't anyone's idea of a justice system I hope.

I'm not attacking "the Court" per se as anyone taking part in this exercise (including myself) is putting him or her self in the position of a judge and acting as that Court.

I'm responding 1) to the notion that anyone who doesn't condemn Dany for one or various charges is a Dany-lover rather than trying to assess whether there is enough evidence either way to pass judgment on those charges and 2) as I outlined above the lack of any critical analysis in accepting those charges seems to indicate an acceptance of charges as evidence of guilt which is surely getting the cart before the horse. It's not as simple as that of course as everyone has presumably read the books and / or seen the show but I like the idea of this as a form of real examination rather than a chance to have a knee-jerk reaction and string up your least favorite characters (or exonerate your favourites). In other words the more explanation the better.

I wasn't making comment at all on the notion behind these court of law sessions which is one I find interesting and the reason I am taking part.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

What I was pointing out in response to a comment from another poster was that if they don't you have people returning a death sentence without any explanation - and that looks as if they have treated the charge sheet as proven facts rather than an accusation. Which isn't anyone's idea of a justice system I hope.

I'm responding 1) to the notion that anyone who doesn't condemn Dany for one or various charges is a Dany-lover rather than trying to assess whether there is enough evidence either way to pass judgment on those charges and 2) as I outlined above the lack of any critical analysis in accepting those charges seems to indicate an acceptance of charges as evidence of guilt which is surely getting the cart before the horse. It's not as simple as that of course as everyone has presumably read the books and / or seen the show but I like the idea of this as a form of real examination rather than a chance to have a knee-jerk reaction and string up your least favorite characters (or exonerate your favourites). In other words the more explanation the better.

You don't have to explain your verdict per se, that's also in the rules of this court, as explained in the first post. I, for one, explained my reasons to deem her guilty or not guilty. Others do so as well. But the notion that ''anyone who doesn't condemn Dany for one or various charges is a Dany-lover'' is one you don't see apply to me, I hope? I merely said that you can pick Daenerys-lovers here, as well as some haters. You can take that to mean that I necessarily think Daenerys should be guilty of every charge - which I don't think. I didn't dismiss all charges or plead not guilty for the Stannis-court, for example, while I am a King's Woman. ;)

The charges are just what they are: charges. It's up to us whether we think Daenerys is guilty or not guilty of them, whether we provide ''evidence'' for it or not. Easy as that. It doesn't indicate an acceptance of their guilt, that's just up to us to decide. When in real life, a judge charges someone with murder, that doesn't indicate their guilt. It's up to the judges and the jury, and lawyers and stuff, to decide whether the defendant is guilty of that charge. It's the same here.

[the trees have eyes]

You don't have to explain your verdict per se, that's also in the rules of this court, as explained in the first post. I, for one, explained my reasons to deem her guilty or not guilty. Others do so as well. But the notion that ''anyone who doesn't condemn Dany for one or various charges is a Dany-lover'' is one you don't see apply to me, I hope? I merely said that you can pick Daenerys-lovers here, as well as some haters. You can take that to mean that I necessarily think Daenerys should be guilty of every charge - which I don't think. I didn't dismiss all charges or plead not guilty for the Stannis-court, for example, while I am a King's Woman. ;)

No, I was seizing on your post to illustrate a broader point about the impression I got from the contributions to the thread in general. If you aren't careful, which I guess i wasn't, it is easy to give the person whose quote you use in this way the impression that you are responding to them or critiquing them directly rather than making a general point - which was what I intended.

Wait, wait, you are a Stannis fan? I take it all back! :rofl:

Only kidding (in case I send the wrong message again) :lol:

[Alester Florent]

Well, it was at the top of the General that day.

And I'm generally distrustful because SeanF and LionofJudah have spent lots of time/effort running this thing, and it's only now at the Daenerys trial people (and I'm not singling you out BTW, because others are doing this here too) are making noises about how unfair this is 8 iterations in.

I'm also skeptical because as I said, the legal objections being made aren't very sound.

I did make a few comments on v.6 (I think; I missed v.7) regarding a couple of technical points (including the charge sheet/evidence confusion), although this thread has certainly seen a much wider and more heated discussion on the subject than any previous ones. Whether that's just Dany, though, it's difficult to judge. Judge bias has been very obvious on occasion in the past (the pro-Stannis lobby did a number on Renly in particular), but perhaps Dany provokes more popular interaction and more vehement opinions?

Some of the legal objections being made are totally unsafe, but then there aren't many people here who are legally trained so it's difficult to hold that too much against people in general. However, there are a couple of common misconceptions floating around, and it's difficult to discern anything from a judgment that gives no reason at all. I would also question whether the judgment of a judge who denies the jursidiction of his own court should be taken into account in the votes!

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

1. Four Counts of Murder:-

1.1 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully killed a godswife, Mirri Maz Duur, by ordering her to be tied to her husband’s funeral pyre, and then burning her alive.

1.2 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully killed Kraznys mo Nakloz, a citizen of Astapor by instructing her dragon, Drogon, to burn him to death, which instruction was carried out.

1.3 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully ordered her soldiers to kill a citizen of Astapor, Grazdan mo Ullor, and to massacre the adult free male inhabitants of Astapor, which order was carried out.

1.4 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully crucified 163 of the Great Masters of Mereen.

2. One Count of Genocide.

The massacre of the adult free males of Astapor, detailed in charge 1.3, amounted to the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group

3. Four Counts of Torture

3.1 The burning of Mirri Maz Duur, detailed in charge 1.1, amounted to torture.

3.2 The crucifixion of the Great Masters, detailed in charge 1.4, amounted to torture.

3.3 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully ordered two wineseller’s daughters to be tortured in front of her father, in order to procure information relating to the Sons of the Harpy.

3.4 The Defendant, intentionally and unlawfully ordered numerous unnamed inhabitants of Mereen to be tortured, on suspicion that they were Sons of the Harpy.

4. Two Counts of Criminal Damage to Property.

4.1 The Defendant unlawfully and intentionally set fire to the House of the Undying in Qarth, resulting in its destruction.

4.2 The Defendant unlawfully and intentionally sacked the City of Mereen, resulting in millions of Dragons’ worth of destruction to property.

5. Two counts of Waging Wars of Aggression

5.1 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully waged a war of aggression against Yunkai

5.2 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully waged a war of aggression against Mereen

1.1. Dany was leader of the of the people that held MMD as a slave. She was fully in her legal right to execute MMD for her crimes against the Dothraki. NOT GUILTY

1.2. Kraznys mo Nakloz was making a lawful business transaction. Dany simply did not want to pay the price. The anti-slavery argument fails simply because A) Dany has a complex relationship with slavery and has shown a willingness to engage in it both before and after the incident even if generally despises it and B) while slavery is a reprehensible and vile institution, it does not justify murder. GUILTY

1.3. As this charge is dealt with in later accusations, it should not be here. CHARGES DISMISSED

*1.4. Unlike MMD, Dany did not act as a ruler punishing people for their crimes. She wanted vengeance and show who is boss. GUILTY

2. This is a clear act of genocide. GUILTY

3.1. This is a tough one, but considering Viserys death, I think it is within Dothraki punishment standards. NOT GUILTY

3.2. The Great Masters themselves showed that crucifixion was an acceptable practice. So, condemning them to a horrible death was wrong (dealt with in charge 1.4), the manner is acceptable by Slaver Bay standards. NOT GUILTY

3.3. As this charge falls under a later charge, it serves no purpose to treat it separately. CHARGES DISMISSED

3.4. This is a difficult one. One hand torture is wrong. On the other, I have been allowing cultural standards to influence an opinion. And I doubt anything was more horrible than what was done by slaves. But again, most slaves were likely not tortured (kinda hard to get work out of them) and almost certainly not with Dany's weak justifications (though the wineseller's daughters might have met the same fate). So, I'll split it. GUILTY BUT LIGHTER PUNISHMENT THAN USUAL

4.1. As the warlocks tried to murder her, Dany had every right to burn down their home as her means of escape. NOT GUILTY

4.2. Eh. I'm pretty sure Quentyn caused more damage than Dany. But really, I must render my verdict based on my reasoning for charges 5. ABSTAIN

5. I honestly don't remember the specifics (and I feel they are important) about how Dany choose to invade either. Thus, I feel I cannot render a fair verdict. ABSTAIN

This judge humbly suggests that one of Dany's biggest crimes - stealing the Unsullied Army by making a deal with their Great Masters in bad faith - should have been on the list of charges. I would have found her guilty there.

WHILE SOME OF THESE CHARGES DESERVE A LESSER PENALTY, FOR THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE AS DETAILED IN CHARGE 2, I CALL FOR DEATH BY THE SWORD.

*I'm assuming this court has the authority to punish people who as rulers were legally entitled to do whatever they want. If not, CHARGES DISMISSED

[Lion of Judah]

Problem is that every judge is biased, me as well. It's far more easier here, of course, since this is a forum. Both sides make arguments for their judgments, though, and the same arguments are used as in normal Daenerys-topics. It's quite funny to see.

When I think about it, it is funny to see everyone take arguments from other threads and used it in Danys court hearing. I suppose the topics has been discussed at such exhausting lengths though that we can't much more to base arguments on. By the way Mrs. Stannis, you do know I'm going to challenge your arguments when his trial comes up right?

[Lion of Judah]

I think you misunderstood me.

I explained all my reasoning in my post. People are free to make their own judgments but it helps if they explain their reasoning.

What I was pointing out in response to a comment from another poster was that if they don't you have people returning a death sentence without any explanation - and that looks as if they have treated the charge sheet as proven facts rather than an accusation. Which isn't anyone's idea of a justice system I hope.

I'm not attacking "the Court" per se as anyone taking part in this exercise (including myself) is putting him or her self in the position of a judge and acting as that Court.

I'm responding 1) to the notion that anyone who doesn't condemn Dany for one or various charges is a Dany-lover rather than trying to assess whether there is enough evidence either way to pass judgment on those charges and 2) as I outlined above the lack of any critical analysis in accepting those charges seems to indicate an acceptance of charges as evidence of guilt which is surely getting the cart before the horse. It's not as simple as that of course as everyone has presumably read the books and / or seen the show but I like the idea of this as a form of real examination rather than a chance to have a knee-jerk reaction and string up your least favorite characters (or exonerate your favourites). In other words the more explanation the better.

I wasn't making comment at all on the notion behind these court of law sessions which is one I find interesting and the reason I am taking part.

I agree with you in the sense that I would love to see more arguments made before a judgement is passed. Just so the argument can be dissected and debated amongst the judges.

[danm_999]

Left him in a permanant vegitative state.

But Daenerys asked her to create this state. MMD explicitly told Daenerys that many feel death is better to the state Drogo is going to be left in, and she asks for it anyway. At no stage does MMD trick her or lie to her, Daenerys just gets a big case of buyer's remorse.

Still, curious reaction from MMD, since when confronted by Dany about it, MMD just says the equivalent of "yeah, I feel no guilt about doing it", She says that rather than a denial that it was her fault.

Daenerys doesn't accuse her of killing Drogo, she accuses her of killing Rhaego. Which is ridiculous, MMD warned her not to enter the tent, and moments before identified Jorah as the person who killed Rhaego.

Dany basically gets very angry and hurt and frustrated (which is understandible) and decides to blame it all on MMD.

[Lion of Judah]

But Daenerys asked her to create this state. MMD explicitly told Daenerys that many feel death is better to the state Drogo is going to be left in, and she asks for it anyway. At no stage does MMD trick her or lie to her, Daenerys just gets a big case of buyer's remorse.

Daenerys doesn't accuse her of killing Drogo, she accuses her of killing Rhaego. Which is ridiculous, MMD warned her not to enter the tent, and moments before identified Jorah as the person who killed Rhaego.

Dany basically gets very angry and hurt and frustrated (which is understandible) and decides to blame it all on MMD.

The accused Daenerys Targaryen did this believing MMD to be a healer, she presented herself as a healer to Dany. So ultimately the trust that Dany showed in her was misguided by MMD herself. The alleged victim MMD was in fact a Maegi, someone who practices blood magic. Not a healer. So the sentence in which she was subjected to was in fact fruit from the very seed she sowed.

By the way, you're making some really good arguments. I just had to challenge them.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Are we close to a verdict?

[Lord Reaver]

The alleged victim MMD was in fact a Maegi, someone who practices blood magic. Not a healer.

You need to show that these two definitions (healer and blood magic practitioner) are mutually exclusive, to reach that conclusion.

[Lion of Judah]

You need to show that these two definitions (healer and blood magic practitioner) are mutually exclusive, to reach that conclusion.

I enter the following links as evidence to the fact the healers do not use or practice blood magic as part of their skill set. The fact is that MMD a Maegi who presented herself as a healer was being purposely disingenuous in doing so.

[danm_999]

The accused Daenerys Targaryen did this believing MMD to be a healer, she presented herself as a healer to Dany.

Ah but she was that too. Mirri Maaz Duur was quite the renaissance (wo)man.

“My mother was godswife before me, and taught me all the songs and spells most pleasing to the Great Shepherd, and how to make the sacred smokes and ointments from leaf and root and berry. When I was younger and more fair, I went in caravan to Asshai by the Shadow, to learn from their mages. Ships from many lands come to Asshai, so I lingered long to study the healing ways of distant peoples. A moonsinger of the Jogos Nhai gifted me with her birthing songs, a woman of your own riding people taught me the magics of grass and corn and horse, and a maester from the Sunset Lands opened a body for me and showed me all the secrets that hide beneath the skin.”

Ser Jorah Mormont spoke up. “A maester?”

“Marwyn, he named himself,” the woman replied in the Common Tongue. “From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech.”

“A maester in Asshai,” Ser Jorah mused. “Tell me, Godswife, what did this Marwyn wear about his neck?”

“A chain so tight it was like to choke him, Iron Lord, with links of many metals.”

The knight looked at Dany. “Only a man trained in the Citadel of Oldtown wears such a chain,” he said, “and such men do know much of healing.”

So MMD knew Marwyn, knew him well enough and for long enough that she learned the Common Tongue from him, and learnt maester based healing and conducted autopsies. Beyond a Maester himself, I'd say she was the closest thing to a healer one could find on the Dothraki plains.

[Lion of Judah]

Are we close to a verdict?

This is SeanF trial and I believe he wants it to remain open in court until tomorrow at which time he will announce the verdict.

[Lion of Judah]

Ah but she was that too. Mirri Maaz Duur was quite the renaissance (wo)man.

So MMD knew Marwyn, knew him well enough and for long enough that she learned the Common Tongue from him, and learnt maester based healing and conducted autopsies. Beyond a Maester himself, I'd say she was the closest thing to a healer one could find on the Dothraki plains.

I do not dispute that she learned certain virtues from the Maester known as Marwyn, but we have no way of knowing that Marwyn indeed taught MMD the skill of healing. We only have the testimony of MMD herself and the fact that what she did could only be described as blood magic. Can we dispute that MMD did indeed use blood magic?

[danm_999]

I do not dispute that she learned certain virtues from the Maester known as Marwyn, but we have no way of knowing that Marwyn indeed taught MMD the skill of healing. We only have the testimony of MMD herself and the fact that what she did could only be described as blood magic. Can we dispute that MMD did indeed use blood magic?

We can't, but that doesn't preclude her also being able to heal.

From what we understand of medicine in our own world (and admittedly the translation isn't perfect from Earth to Westeros in the natural sciences, see Arya's magic north facing moss and the Dothraki gold you can melt in a cookpot), the medical advice she gives is sound. She is cautious of infection, she uses boiled wine to sterilise the gash, she knows how to make a plaster cast, she tells him to keep the wound closed, don't drink heavily, don't take opium, itching and pain means it's healing, etc.

There's no hint that any of this is wrong, and in fact Daenerys freely admits she and Drogo ignored the advice MMD gave them. This is all part of the problem I have with saying MMD betrayed anybody, because the advice she did give people was simply ignored.

Someone appears to have taught her a great deal about good medical practice, and someone taught her the Common Tongue. And we know that Marwyn has a reputation for keeping queer company for a Maester, and that he was in Asshai.