How the new WoW armies will stack up in terms of numbers

[Frey Pie]

You are not alone, especially if you consider that knights were finally replaced by landsknechte...

I think they can be the core of a good army, IF they are handled correctly. As they are i think theyll be eaten up by an equal number of a Westerosi army (mixed infantry cavarly and archers) pr the Gold Company. Whether Dany and her group have the knowledge to turn them over i don know

[Volantis]

Who's Aegon Blackfyre?

[Ponys123]

All I see is conjecture with bits and pieces of the text slapped in. Just look at this:

Betwen the battles of the Green Fork, Fords and Blackwater:

I estimate that the losses of Tywin host are about a quarter of his total: so we must have about 15.000 Lannister men now.

How the hell could Lannister losses at the Blackwater ever amount to a quarter of the army? It was a victory, and a pretty easy one - for the relieving army, anyway. Only the mounted troops, presumably around half to 2/3 of the force, were present at the action. And they struck an unsuspecting and disorganized enemy, a large part of whose army defected without ever striking a blow. There's no way in hell they could have lost 25% of their men. The casualty figure almost certainly below 1%. In short, utterly negligible.

However, war isn't only about the big battles. A constant toll on manpower is put by the incessant raiding, skirmishing and siege warfare, which is what warfare mostly consists of, and often what it ONLY consists of. Even more so, captured castles and keeps need garrisons, areas need patrolling, and even after a general victory (most foes knocked out, usually through sieges and raiding, rather than field battles), many areas need to be patrolled and garrisoned.

So the number of men the Lannisters can afford to put into the field from Tywin's force is much reduced from what it was at the outset of hostilities.

[Jon Snow eats wild beaver]

You wanted to say:

Unsullied http://de.123rf.com/...m-fernglas.html

Westeris:http://burningdragonia.com/home

110%

Good picture of what's likely to happen a couple times in the next book. How many troops did aegon the conqueror on the back of belerion have? How many did they need?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Am i alone i thinking that although outdated, the Unsullied could still be a force in Westeros if utilised properly, and armoured correctly? A huge problem with phalanxes were flanking, but if backed up well, used in the centre of the line with solid flanks, could they perform well?

Another huge problem with phalanxes is that they know only a single direction: straight ahead, no turning sideways or retreating.

Plus if the phalanx gets broken in a single spot, it turns to slaughter. Something that a wedge of heavy cavalry excelled at.

The Unsullied could utilise their strength in sieges where discipline and courage trumps, but in open battle they'd get outmaneuvred and curbstomped.

You are not alone, especially if you consider that knights were finally replaced by landsknechte...

... which have virtually zero resemblance to their phalanx great-great-greatfathers. Apart from "big formation of many, many infantrymen" the gewalthaufen had completely different features. And way more useful equipment.

[MDT]

... which have virtually zero resemblance to their phalanx great-great-greatfathers. Apart from "big formation of many, many infantrymen" the gewalthaufen had completely different features. And way more useful equipment.

Yeah, they were pikemen with "extras" behind them though those extras were gradually replaced by more pikes and firearms because they were useless. And finally the gewalthaufen was turned obsolete when the dutch basically invented a roman cohort system with pikes.

Ah and sorry, I missed the phalanx aspect in Frey Pie's post, as the Unsullied are no phalanx. To me the Unsullied sounded like roman legionares with a spear instead of a pilum. (I can be wrong here though)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yeah, they were pikemen with "extras" behind them though those extras were gradually replaced by more pikes and firearms because they were useless. And finally the gewalthaufen was turned obsolete when the dutch basically invented a roman cohort system with pikes.

Ah and sorry, I missed the phalanx aspect in Frey Pie's post, as the Unsullied are no phalanx. To me the Unsullied sounded like roman legionares with a spear instead of a pilum. (I can be wrong here though)

Yes I agree, more like Roman soldiers, or even the Aenglish (British) soldiers during the Saxon invasion around 500 AD.

They would just line up shoulder to shoulder and when one dropped another scooted into his place from the row behind.

The unsullied are the greatest army out there right now, esp when dany joins them with her new khalasar and at least 1 dragon, although I have a theory about another dragon and rider joining the battle of mereen;

After reading some of ASOS when Brown Ben Plumm is first helping Dany break into Mereen and Viserion jumps on him and likes him in her Pavilion, then how in DwD BBP is with Tyrion and trying to decide how to defect back to Dany's team, and in the new sample Tyrion Chapter, BBP is still wanting to go back to Dany.

BBP tells Dany in ASOS that he has some targaryen blood in his family from way back. I sort of feel like the way he will get back in her good graces will be to somehow find Viserion and mount him and fly him into this battle supporting Dany. It not like the Dragons are the things in Avatar where they can 'only have 1 rider in the whole life'. So who is to say only 1 person will ride each dragon? And a little bit of targaryen blood is all someone needs to ride a dragon right? I just fee like why would GRRM have put all that stuff in about BBP bonding with Viserion if nothing was going to come of it??

I feel like I am right about this. When i first thought of it, I couldn't wait to get on and see what everyone else thinks??? :dunno:

[lady m]

The unsullied are the greatest army out there right now, esp when dany joins them with her new khalasar and at least 1 dragon, although I have a theory about another dragon and rider joining the battle of mereen

They're the greatest army in Essos, which I think is what Bright Blue Eyes & Frey Pie are getting at. That Westerosi knights with their constant warring and generally more martial nature of Westeros v Essos, the Unsullied have never faced anything like the knights & infantry of the Seven Kingdoms. I do like the Roman v Napoleonic era technology, that sounds about right, obviously without gunpowder, but I guess you can sub magic & warging for those.

[Ponys123]

The unsullied aren't an army, they're a type of soldier.

Either way, how they fight tactically shouldn't matter much, unless they're facing mewling infants stupid enough to give pitched battle to a large invading force when it's not necessary.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The unsullied aren't an army, they're a type of soldier.

Either way, how they fight tactically shouldn't matter much, unless they're facing mewling infants stupid enough to give pitched battle to a large invading force when it's not necessary.

Giving pitched battle to a large but inferior invading force is the work of mewling infants? Fighting tactically doesn't matter? Well, if everybody including the Others just kneels down and kisses Dany's sandals as soon as she starts spouting her titles you are right.

[The Sunset King]

Has anyone tried to speculate on the current size of the sparrow militias? These may not be all that important of a military force yet but they have the potential to keep expanding and recruiting as conditions in Westeros worsen. They may siphon off bannermen from some key lords, as Jaime already is detecting, though he may not have realized the full extent of the problem yet. The most likely candidate for the sparrow movement to back is Aegon of House Blackfyre (mistakenly believing him to be of the Rhaegar lineage).

[Ponys123]

Giving pitched battle to a large but inferior invading force is the work of mewling infants?

Yup. See how it worked out for the great victors of history like Darius III, Harold of England and Fieldmarshal Mack of Austria. Dany's army would likely be badly supplied, quite large, and include dragons. All perfect incentives for using a Fabian strategy.

Fighting tactically doesn't matter?

Not really, no. Wars are usually decided by superior logistical support, strategic maneuver and success in capturing fortified positions, rather than defeating similar enemy forces in the field.

Well, if everybody including the Others just kneels down and kisses Dany's sandals as soon as she starts spouting her titles you are right.

Well if you decide to come back, better know what you're talking about.

The only incentive for pitched battle would be the potential for desertion - but if any important lords are going to desert, they are just as likely to fuck up any attempt at winning a direct battle. Also, dragons.

[Frey Pie]

Has anyone tried to speculate on the current size of the sparrow militias? These may not be all that important of a military force yet but they have the potential to keep expanding and recruiting as conditions in Westeros worsen. They may siphon off bannermen from some key lords, as Jaime already is detecting, though he may not have realized the full extent of the problem yet. The most likely candidate for the sparrow movement to back is Aegon of House Blackfyre (mistakenly believing him to be of the Rhaegar lineage).

I would think they number in the thousands by now, mostly Riverland and Crownland men. I dont see them as that much of a threat yet militarily. They are fervent and zealous, but who would lead them in battle? Who would organise them into companies?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yup. See how it worked out for the great victors of history like Darius III, Harold of England and Fieldmarshal Mack of Austria. Dany's army would likely be badly supplied, quite large, and include dragons. All perfect incentives for using a Fabian strategy.

Worked just fine at Thermopylae, Plataia, Salamis, and a couple of other battles.

A Fabian strategy is a viable option, but it isn't the only one. And judging from what has happened in the books, most Lords prefer battle.

Not really, no. Wars are usually decided by superior logistical support, strategic maneuver and success in capturing fortified positions, rather than defeating similar enemy forces in the field.

Works fine, but once in a while a battle occurs. And if someone loses it big time, he got a problem.

Well if you decide to come back, better know what you're talking about.

The only incentive for pitched battle would be the potential for desertion - but if any important lords are going to desert, they are just as likely to fuck up any attempt at winning a direct battle. Also, dragons.

Often "important Lords" desert only if their leader appears craven - see Fabius Maximus Cunctator. Losing his lands was the reason why Frey and Bolton deserted Robb Stark by the way. Lords try to avoid that.

[Frey Pie]

Danys army is going to be a nightmare to manage. It wont have the supplies necessary, will lack cohesivness and probably discipline. Her dragons are her greatest asset and as unreliable as Roose Bolton at a wedding. Hard to see her mounting any sort of invasion without mainland help, and things deteriorating on the mainland

[Red Knight]

But Dorne is said to have 50 thousand spears, Tyrells as much, and Vale probably can't get more than 20-30 thousand men. North brouht 20 thousand in their hightime, i doubt they could put above 10 thousand now. Dany's forces will probably grow more as she conquers Volantis.

[Frey Pie]

But Dorne is said to have 50 thousand spears, Tyrells as much, and Vale probably can't get more than 20-30 thousand men. North brouht 20 thousand in their hightime, i doubt they could put above 10 thousand now. Dany's forces will probably grow more as she conquers Volantis.

Dorne is the least populous of all the Seven Kingdoms, and not all that rich. Doran admits that his armies arent as strong as they make out. Putting them just above the Iron Isles 30000 is a generous number, with perhaps the ability to project 15000 men in foreign lands.

Tyrells have far more then that. Perhpas as much as 80000.

The Vale is both wealthy and fairly populous. Aorund 45000 is a generally accepted number.

The North has a very low population density but is so huge that its population would be up there with any areas but the Riverlands and Reach. Already we have upwards of 10000 Northmen in WF or on the way. Manderly and other lords have much strength left, as well as the huge island Skaagos being untouched but soon to enter the story. Another 25000 are so could be attainable, but id say closer to another 10000 on top of what you have given them

As for Danys numbers: doesnt matter how many men she can call upon if she cant get them all to Westeros. Its going to take a mighty big fleet

[Jalapenohitchhiker]

How will the others do in the Neck? Im imagining zombie like frost men shambling through the marsh getting stuck all over the place

I don't know. We really have no idea what they would do in the midst of a swamp.

Both Ned and Robb ordered Howland Reed to defend the Neck itself instead of joining Robb. And he did. Victarion's 10,000-12,000 men in Moat Cailin suffered heavily, and after he left the Crannogmen were on the brink of taking it, only with Robb already dead it would have been useless.

Ah, thanks for that. Though I am unsure of how many spears Moat Cailin would have to offer.

[Mulled Wino]

How about 3 dragons for Dany?

[lady m]

Frey Pie, do you or Bright Blue Eyes think that Barriston could properly manage Dany's supporters? I guess I ask about him since Victarion is used to a sort of smash & grab style of warfare, which is different from infantry or cavelery type of battles.