Tyrion's acts of kindness/guidance to major characters.

[1234567]

The point is, those are only a few men out of the entirety of Westeros. Not all men hold regards to their honor or the honor of a lady. It seems you're going out of your way to deny Tyrion of any praise for the good things he has done....

He has done good things, but his treatment of Sansa in general wasn't one of them. He did try after they were married, but at the same time he didn't really like her as a person. When he imagines her she morphs into Tysha 2.0, but when he discusses her with other he is quite disparaging. He appreciates her skills but is also cross she doesn't want him.

He is actually very nice to Penny (apart from hitting her) and saves Jorah, which was a kindness. He got the saddle for Bran , was nice to Jon etc.

[Sullen]

Ned, Stannis, Davos, Robb, Jon, Bronze Yohn, Doran Martell, Garlan Tyrell and those are just off the top of my head. But then I doubt they would participate in the forced marriage of a child prisoner in the first place.

If it was Stannis's duty to go through and take Sansa's maidenhead, I think he would have gone through it, honor be damned.

[Lyanna Stark]

I think we should give medals to everyone who fails to rape crying 13 years old girl who had her first period like weeks ago. It IS a club where Drogo wouldn't be welcomed to, together with Biter and few others I can think of. Some sort of "I am better human than Gregor Clegane" badge of honour.

Indeed. Everyone must get the "Good Deed" medal for being better than Gregor Clegane.

For the record, I am sure Biter had an awful childhood too. Poor ickle thing. And Gregor, he had headaches. He couldn't help himself when he raped that innkeeper's daughter. His cock betrayed him.

[Kolantero]

Well this should be fun.

Anyway the old argument about how Tyrion shouldn't be seen as "nice" because he "just" didn't take Sansa's maidenhood is half-truth at best.

Tyrion had a lot more to gain than just "sex" from "completing" the ceremony. If he wanted sex he could have gone to Shae. Through Sansa he would get WF, the seat of the greatest of the Seven Kingdoms. More importantly he would get away from Joffrey who would surely chop off his head when he would gain full power as an adult king.

So what Tyrion gave away (or put in jeopardy anyway) by not completing the marriage wasn't "sex" but rather Great power and riches AND more importantly safety.

While still that wouldn't make Tyrion a hero it is more than enough to label him a nice, decent guy (in that situation)

In fact experiments (e.g. Milgram experiment) have shown that real life, modern people will do the same worse for far less. (the experiment included women too btw). Based on the milgram experiment but other research as well (e.g. how the Nazis would convince local ordinary people to wipe out the Jews and others), most of the people in this forum would do the same for less if in the same situation even though they like to think otherwise.

What I find funny ofcourse is that Tyrion in many threads consistently gets "attacked" for something he didn't actualy do

[SerWest]

Only a few men would not commit marital rape on an underage hostage forcibly married to them?

Please try again.

Again, there's no such thing as "marital rape" in Westeros. When you're married, a man has the right to have his woman whenever he wants. Don't think so? Ever heard of any sexual assault cases brought to the High Septon in which a man forced his wife to have sex? Didn't think so...and besides, this was not what i wanted to get into with this post. This post is about Tyrion and the effects his kindness/guidance might have on his future. So if you don't want to discuss that, then please just leave and find another topic to nitpick.

[jon stark I]

I think only reason he didn't sleep with Sansa is he feared that she might slit his throat open.

He "helped" Bran because he felt guilty about what Jaime did and he saw Bran as himself.

[1234567]

Tyrion was forced into it as much as Sansa was.

He was seduced into it by thoughts of being Lord of Winterfell (which depended on her brother's death btw) and a hot young wife. I think he convinced himself it would be fine as prostitutes have always played that role for him and that he treated it like an arranged marriage, not a forced one.

[Cruella]

One should not agree to do something vile just because somebody else would do it otherwise. There is even marginally better chance that Sansa could grow to tolerate Lancel than Tyrion, since hes not literally revolting to look at. But this logic doesn't work in any case. Lorch and Clegane aren't off the hook for killing Rhaegar kids just because Tywin would undoubdetly find someone else to do it otherwise. But, perhaps it was their logic. "Hey, it's bad and all but if we dont do it, he'll just ask somebody else. Might as well get along with it".

How many Lannisters do they have for her to marry anyway? IF Tyrion said No, it would be Lancel and? Devon? In theory, if they said No as well, Sansa would be out of direct Lannisters to marry. They wouldn't dare to refuse Tywin, but damn, it's not a reason for Tyrion not to do it - if they agreed to do something so evil, it would be their responsibility.

And most would be better option than Tyrion, who's off putting on purely physical level.

Tyrion could totally have said No to this proposal, as he said to quite a few others.

[protar]

He was Hand of the King and he knew about the beatings. He says to Cersei that Myrcella will be treated better than Sansa. Also Sansa being beaten was done by all the Kingsguard and common knowledge.

I admit I may be in for a reread, but Tyrion stops the beatings not long after he became hand does he not? Certainly the bulk of them take place before he arrives.

And the fact remains that he did in fact stop the beatings which is undeniably a good act. To just go and say "nope not good enough, his first act as Hand should've been to prevent Joffrey from beating Sansa." is ridiculous. He did something good, prevented Sansa from getting seriously injured and told Joff what was what. To argue that he could've taken action sooner is perfectly reasonable. To completely revoke his acts of kindness because they're not morally perfect actions is just silly and biased.

[JMJ]

Wow. Lot's of Tyrion hate going on here.

Tyrion's clearly no saint, but you have to admit there are glimpses of kindness that he shows. I agree with the Jon interactions - he gave Jon sage advice that was unsolicited, and it had a positive impact on Jon's emotional development. Bran's saddle was not something he had to do.

OTOH, I would also agree his dealings with Sansa and (F)Aegon were very grey. He did show some amount of respect to Sansa in that he clearly had physical desires for her and technically could have "had his way" with her once they were married, but he refrained. OTOH, he was just as complicit in many ways to the Lannister maltreatment of her. And I'm not sure the Aegon advice to shortcut to Westeros was out of Tyrion's kindness - I think he saw that as a way of getting Aegon and JonCOn out of the way.

That being said, I'll add a few more instances where you could see glimpses of Tyrion's kindness: He always treated Pod Payne well as his squire. Like her or not, he treated Penny well.

I think the common theme in those he treated well was that he identifies with those who have some kind of disadvantage in what life dealt them - Bran (crippled), Jon (bastard), Pod (orphaned), Penny (well that's obvious). The flip side is that the people who really got his goat were those who liked to abuse their positions of strength/power, including Tywin, Cersei, Joff.

[Lord Ben]

This whole thread and dozens like it are just attempts to judge characters by 21st century moral standards. Tyrion is not a saint but he's no monster either.

Cripes, go back 100 years with our DVD's of GoT and we're all a bunch of vile pornographers who'd probably get tossed in prison. 100 years from now who knows what type of moral standards people will judge us by...

Characters should be judged by the world they live in, not the one we live in.

[Cruella]

His cock betrayed him.

I love this quote btw. Tyrion sees love of your life raped by dozens of soldiers until she's bleeding and half-conscious and gets turned on by this. I don't blame him for not trying to protect her physically but I am pretty sure I'd be throwing up and crying hysterically at this point, not feeling arousal.

Tyrion could refuse Tywin, Sansa couldn't refuse Cersei. and there is no comparison in Westeros between parents arranging best possible marriage for you and your family's murderers forcing you to marry one of them.

For the record, I am sure Biter had an awful childhood too. Poor ickle thing.

He did btw. Legit horrible childhood. I can be mistaken, but I think he was raised by Rorge who set him up to fight feral dogs and filed his teeth into points. Biter's problem is that he has no tongue and no POV, if he could quip and be sad because hot chicks don't dig him, he'd win people's sympathy before long.

Characters should be judged by the world they live in, not the one we live in.

I keep expecting someone to argue that Arya should lose her hand because she attacked crown prince to protect worthless baseborn get, or that it would be understandable for Tywin to leave Tyrion exposed to nature as abomination, since thats' what most peasants would do, but somehow this argument is never taken to its logical conclusion.

[Winterfellian]

Not to mention threatening her safety in front of her when sending Cleos Frey North. Also although he stopped one beating, he did nothing to stop all the beatings that were going on for months before.

Is there actual textual evidence that supports the idea that Tyrion was always aware of all the other beatings? I ask because I honestly can't remember any. The beatings started way before Tyrion's return. Around this time I imagine the gossip about Sansa Stark being beat by the KG was probably very loud but Tyrion wasn't there. When he finally arrived at KG he immediately immersed himself in his role as Hand which kept him very busy. I didn't get the feeling he kept particularly close tabs on Sansa except in extraordinary situations like the riot. Is very possible he wasn't aware of Sansa being abused by the KG until he witnessed it in person. And after this he offered her to take up residence in the tower of the Hand and one of his clansmen (because the KG wouldn't come after her if she had one of these with her) all in light of her protection. Following your logic that he was always aware of the beatings but never did anything, why would he even bothered offering protection when he did then? Because of a whim? You'd think that if he was ok with the beatings in the first place he never would have bothered to offer defending her or offering safety later on.

Tyrion isn't entirely blameless where Sansa is concerned but I don't understand the need to vilify him and every one of their interactions.

For kind acts, I will add that when he arrived at KG he ordered the heads of Ned and the rest to be taken from the walls going against Joffrey's wishes. I like the respect he showed when he said that even in war certain courtesies had to be kept, specially considering the great amount of corpses that are left as carrion food we see through the books.

[David Selig]

Well this should be fun.

Anyway the old argument about how Tyrion shouldn't be seen as "nice" because he "just" didn't take Sansa's maidenhood is half-truth at best.

Tyrion had a lot more to gain than just "sex" from "completing" the ceremony. If he wanted sex he could have gone to Shae. Through Sansa he would get WF, the seat of the greatest of the Seven Kingdoms. More importantly he would get away from Joffrey who would surely chop off his head when he would gain full power as an adult king.

So what Tyrion gave away (or put in jeopardy anyway) by not completing the marriage wasn't "sex" but rather Great power and riches AND more importantly safety.

Except that at this point Winterfell wasn't Sansa's so Tyrion wasn't gaining anything except a claim which was really hard to enforce. It's not like he'd have suddenly become this all powerful Lord of the North if he had just gone through with it.

[SerWest]

This whole thread and dozens like it are just attempts to judge characters by 21st century moral standards. Tyrion is not a saint but he's no monster either.

Cripes, go back 100 years with our DVD's of GoT and we're all a bunch of vile pornographers who'd probably get tossed in prison. 100 years from now who knows what type of moral standards people will judge us by...

Characters should be judged by the world they live in, not the one we live in.

While I agree with you, this was not the purpose of this post. The purpose of this post was to discuss Tyrion's future and whether or not these acts will help shape it.

[protar]

He has done good things, but his treatment of Sansa in general wasn't one of them. He did try after they were married, but at the same time he didn't really like her as a person. When he imagines her she morphs into Tysha 2.0, but when he discusses her with other he is quite disparaging. He appreciates her skills but is also cross she doesn't want him.

He is actually very nice to Penny (apart from hitting her) and saves Jorah, which was a kindness. He got the saddle for Bran , was nice to Jon etc.

Where is it said that Tyrion didn't like Sansa as a person? He was frustrated that she didn't open up to him despite his efforts but I never got an impression of not liking her. And can you really blame him for his frustration? He makes every effort to be kind to her but she remains cold and closed-off to him, despite admitting later on that he was kind to her. Now of course I never expected for a second for Sansa to open up to him like he wanted, I don't blame her, but I can see why it would be hurtful and frustrating to Tyrion.

[1234567]

Tyrion had a lot more to gain than just "sex" from "completing" the ceremony.

He got those things without raping her. As soon as he married her, and her brother died he got that.

What he did to her by marrying her was destroy her future for his own sake, which is not an act of kindness.

So what Tyrion gave away (or put in jeopardy anyway) by not completing the marriage wasn't "sex" but rather Great power and riches AND more importantly safety.

He still had Winterfell through the marriage (hence him offering to give Bronn a big chunk of the North). Also Winterfell was far from a safe seat. The chances of him meeting with an "accident" we're high.

While still that wouldn't make Tyrion a hero it is more than enough to label him a nice, decent guy (in that situation)

IMHO it just saves him from a moral event horizon event.

[protar]

I love this quote btw. Tyrion sees love of your life raped by dozens of soldiers until she's bleeding and half-conscious and gets turned on by this. I don't blame him for not trying to protect her physically but I am pretty sure I'd be throwing up and crying hysterically at this point, not feeling arousal.

Are you aware that many sexual abuse victims experience erections or orgasms during their abuse? It does not mean they're enjoying it. That is how I interpreted the "my cock betrayed me" line.

[Lord Ben]

While I agree with you, this was not the purpose of this post. The purpose of this post was to discuss Tyrion's future and whether or not these acts will help shape it.

Yes, he'll benefit from his treatment of his peers. Apart from Cersei and Sansa I can't think of too many who hate him. And I think Sansa just hates all Lannisters in general.

[Lyanna Stark]

Again, there's no such thing as "marital rape" in Westeros. When you're married, a man has the right to have his woman whenever he wants. Don't think so? Ever heard of any sexual assault cases brought to the High Septon in which a man forced his wife to have sex? Didn't think so...and besides, this was not what i wanted to get into with this post. This post is about Tyrion and the effects his kindness/guidance might have on his future. So if you don't want to discuss that, then please just leave and find another topic to nitpick.

Oh please not this again.

*facepalm*

This is not the first time, nor the last this is brought up, but despite Westeros not recognising marital rape as a crime, we readers certainly do, and that's what matters. Your thread is not about "good deeds by Westerosi standards" but about good deeds full stop and Tyrion not raping Sansa does not qualify.

I might also add here that denying the existence of marital rape or trivialising it is a really, really good way to get the thread locked.