How is Jaime Lannister on a redemption arc?

[Gauis Julius Caesar]

i like jaime and thoroughly enjoy his povs and think his story is amongst the most interesting. that being said, i also doubt whether he can fully redeem himself. the only situation i see where he would be fully redeemed is if he literally sacrifices himself for a stark, and i don't see how that's happening. quick tangent, does anyone remember if there's a reference in one of the books to drogon on a haunting expedition having trouble with a "white lion"? i heard someone reference this in passing and i really don't have the time to look through three books of asoiaf to find it (essays and whatnot). so if someone could maybe just confirm atleast a recollection of this it would be much appreciated. i just think it would be an interesting foreshadowing possibility. you know, with the jaime constantly trying to live up to "whiteness" of cloak and essentially being a "white lion". i would much appreciate it, thanks in advance! back to my essays now lol

[The Wolves]

But I don't understand why do you think it affected him so much that he regrets what he did just because the effects Bran's falll had on him. What serious misfortune befell on him as a direct result of Bran's fall?

In Jamie's first Chapter in ASOS he states plainly that he did regret pushing Bran because all the problems it caused him.

[JMJ]

In Jamie's first Chapter in ASOS he states plainly that he did regret pushing Bran because all the problems it caused him.

But there's a difference between regret because you are unhappy about all the troubles your act has caused, vs. regret because you realize that what you did was morally wrong.

[Cas Stark]

In Jamie's first Chapter in ASOS he states plainly that he did regret pushing Bran because all the problems it caused him.

Where does he say this?

"Innocent? The wretched boy was spying on us."

"If truth be told, Jamie had come to regret heaving Brandon Stark out that window. Cersei had given him no end of grief afterward, when the boy refused to die."

This isn't exactly my idea of regret..he's sorry he pushed Bran out the window because his bitch sister was angry that the fall didn't kill Bran. Redemption my ass.

[The Wolves]

But there's a difference between regret because you are unhappy about all the troubles your act has caused, vs. regret because you realize that what you did was morally wrong.

And that's what I'm trying to say regarding Jamie and his lack of regret for pushing Bran he only feels it because of the trouble it caused not because it was morally wrong and for him to be on any type of redemption he should feel some regret for pushing Bran because it was wrong not because of the affects it had on him

[Ivashanko]

Because this is a book, and the author clearly likes Jamie...

[locke and key]

And that's what I'm trying to say regarding Jamie and his lack of regret for pushing Bran he only feels it because of the trouble it caused not because it was morally wrong and for him to be on any type of redemption he should feel some regret for pushing Bran because it was wrong not because of the affects it had on him

:dunno:

[locke and key]

i like jaime and thoroughly enjoy his povs and think his story is amongst the most interesting. that being said, i also doubt whether he can fully redeem himself. the only situation i see where he would be fully redeemed is if he literally sacrifices himself for a stark, and i don't see how that's happening. quick tangent, does anyone remember if there's a reference in one of the books to drogon on a haunting expedition having trouble with a "white lion"? i heard someone reference this in passing and i really don't have the time to look through three books of asoiaf to find it (essays and whatnot). so if someone could maybe just confirm atleast a recollection of this it would be much appreciated. i just think it would be an interesting foreshadowing possibility. you know, with the jaime constantly trying to live up to "whiteness" of cloak and essentially being a "white lion". i would much appreciate it, thanks in advance! back to my essays now lol

I think although he may not be fully redeemed, that will come in some other way, ultimately it's not just the starks who were wronged by him. but people seem to mainly focus on the bad things which've happened to that family

[locke and key]

He's actually planning to expose his incest to the light of day, and doesn't want anyone to forget it, ever. He's not ashamed of his sexual activity with another consenting adult.

Which king did he stab in the back? If you mean metaphorically, with regard to him killing Aerys, what would you have had him do? Let Aerys and his cronies blow up KL?

He freed his brother, who was sentenced to die for a crime he didn't commit. He didn't know Tyrion would later (as in *after* he freed him) kill Tywin.

I think a parent's primary responsibility would be keeping their children alive. Doing that meant Jaime couldn't take up any other responsibilities. Note that as soon as Robert's gone, Jaime wants to marry Cersei and make his kids heirs to Casterly Rock.

Like protect the weak and innocent? So just like every other knight in Westeros, then?

Which oath has he broken? His unwillingness to break those oaths will probably be his undoing.

No one is more aware that he can't leave his past behind than Jaime. He stews on it, he laughs about it, he even rages about it. You'll have to show me the passage where he says something as mundane as "Today's the day I'm gonna change."

His road is long, and will probably end in a violent death. And he's certainly a charcter of greys. But a creature of habit? He's just broken off a lifelong love affair, resolved to tell both of his children he's their father, done everything he possibly can to make Tommen safe by ending the war, ended said war with ruthless negotiation rather than bloodshed, and when last we see him has dropped everything to try to save Sansa Stark.

Jaime Lannister isn't a good man. He's an *actual* man, who's done awful things, but also done heroic things. He's a man who has been very clearly shown to be on a redemptive arc.

:agree: I think generally in asoiaf "the good men" who've done nothing wrong are the most boring to read (i'm lookin at you Areo Hotah)

[Winterfellian]

In Jamie's first Chapter in ASOS he states plainly that he did regret pushing Bran because all the problems it caused him.

Can you provide a quote? I honestly don't remember this. What is in the text is the bit about Bran's innocence posted above.

Anyway, what you should really pay attention is the fact that this is in the very first Jaime chapter in ASOS. No one is claiming he's a change man from the very first chapter in ASOS. If anything this provides further evidence of his progress as a character. In early ASOS he goes as far as to wrongly question Bran's innocence and later he clearly tells Cersei that he's ashamed of the Bran incident. This clearly points out that by ADWD he's not the same man he was in ASOS. Even if you resist to the idea of a redemption for him, the change in his character is undeniable.

[locke and key]

Can you provide a quote? I honestly don't remember this. What is in the text is the bit about Bran's innocence posted above.

Anyway, what you should really pay attention is the fact that this is in the very first Jaime chapter in ASOS. No one is claiming he's a change man from the very first chapter in ASOS. If anything this provides further evidence of his progress as a character. In early ASOS he goes as far as to wrongly question Bran's innocence and later he clearly tells Cersei that he's ashamed of the Bran incident. This clearly points out that by ADWD he's not the same man he was in ASOS. Even if you resist to the idea of a redemption for him, the change in his character is undeniable.

I have to say I agree with you while the actual act of redemption hasn't occured yet, If jaime were to be offered it he'd take it up because he is changing and grrm has put him on a path towards change.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

I understand that people seem to think Jaime Lannister is on some sort of redemption arc just because he had his hand cut off. Let's consider a few things:

• Jaime didn't get his hand cut off to punish him for a crime, he had it cut off for a completely unrelated reason. It's like if you kill someone and then instead of being killed back by a relation of the person you've killed, you're killed by Javier Bardem over a gambling debt. It cannot be called 'justice' or 'revenge', merely 'karma'. And it isn't even that, since instead of being unable to walk he's unable to use a sword to kill more innocent people.
  
• How can you feel sorry for him? He hasn't actually changed his actions at all, just the way he thinks about himself. He thinks he is some noble warrior, but no, he's a prick who thinks he is less of a prick.
  
• He expresses no regret over Bran's predicament.
  
• He considers Tywin Lannister a good man.
  
• He continues to defend a family with no claim to the Iron Throne.
  

I don't necessarily hate him. Actually, that's a lie, I do hate him, but I am just baffled as to why people think he is on a redemption arc. He said he wants to try and save Lord Eddard Stark's Daughters, but its too late for him to try and be good now. I hope he is burned.

EDIT: Perhaps the title should have been "How is Jaime Lannister a good person?" because this is the message I seem to be getting from a lot of threads that don't want Jaime killed, and actually want UnCat to die instead.

I honestly think if he hadnt found out Cercei was cheating on him, he would be still be that same scumbag he always has been. He never shows signs of regret for trying to kill Bran. He admits he would have killed Arya had he found her.

[locke and key]

I honestly think if he hadnt found out Cercei was cheating on him, he would be still be that same scumbag he always has been. He never shows signs of regret for trying to kill Bran. He admits he would have killed Arya had he found her.

The scumbag he'd always been wouldn't have gone back and saved brienne

[IRON BANK]

If its one thing Jamie does its whats best for him i dont think he'll tell every one about the incest just his kids. and that aint good enough. oh and he should be ashamed. and thats the whole point he isn't.

Which king did he stab in the back? If you mean metaphorically, with regard to him killing Aerys, what would you have had him do? Let Aerys and his cronies blow up KL?

yes let him start the self indulgent crazy treasonous crime then dispense the justice, exactly that way you live up to your oaths and you dont look like oh a king slayer

He freed his brother, who was sentenced to die for a crime he didn't commit. He didn't know Tyrion would later (as in *after* he freed him) kill Tywin.

o.k. so you tell your brother that your dad actually had your wife gang raped. and then made you go, and say to yourself ok glad we got that over with. this in no way can come back to bite me, this won't result in any retaliation were all good now right bro.

I think a parent's primary responsibility would be keeping their children alive. Doing that meant Jaime couldn't take up any other responsibilities. Note that as soon as Robert's gone, Jaime wants to marry Cersei and make his kids heirs to Casterly Rock.

a good way to help keep your children alive is to put them in a situation thats safe he gave that up with the incest.

thats interesting i always thought the primary responsibilty would be to not sleep with the kings wife in the first place, which is a crime, and not have sex with your sister a modern westeros taboo. im sorry after the incident with bran i dont think he cares much for children.

Like protect the weak and innocent? So just like every other knight in Westeros, then?

you mean like selmy and brienne sure.

Which oath has he broken? His unwillingness to break those oaths will probably be his undoing.

every oath he already broke will be his undoing.

No one is more aware that he can't leave his past behind than Jaime. He stews on it, he laughs about it, he even rages about it. You'll have to show me the passage where he says something as mundane as "Today's the day I'm gonna change."

oh Jamie believes he's coming around a corner alright, but its not gonna happen. he'll probably end up fighting tyrion for casterly rock and strangling cersie, in this next confrontation killing brienne

ve S

His road is long, and will probably end in a violent death. And he's certainly a charcter of greys. But a creature of habit? He's just broken off a lifelong love affair, resolved to tell both of his children he's their father, done everything he possibly can to make Tommen safe by ending the war, ended said war with ruthless negotiation rather than bloodshed, and when last we see him has dropped everything to try to saansa Stark

.

i'm glad we can agree on a character of grey's or dark grey's.

No, jamie ran off with Brienne, because deep down he likes her, she's everything he's not. If he truly wanted to find sansa he would've hired sell swords and the whole nine yards.

Jaime Lannister isn't a good man. He's an *actual* man, who's done awful things, but also done heroic things. He's a man who has been very clearly shown to be on a redemptive arc.

a heroic thing is something that is done selflessly for others Jamie serves his own interests. even if he tries in his point of view chapters to convince himself otherwise. in the end game when tyrion takes him down it will be epic. i hope bran wargs a dragon and eats him.

[jon stark I]

You can certainly disagree with those who sympathize with him, but to out and out deny the potential doesn't make sense to me. He saved Brienne multiple times making him literally "a hero" in the most classic sense, plus he stood up to Cersei and has been sticking up for The Starks frequently as of late (e.g. "The Young Wolf was a brave man," berating Sybel Spicer), That doesn't make him a good person but that makes him a valid candidate for praise in a world full of very grey characters.

I respect that he's crossed the moral event horizon for you, but speaking personally of myself, if I took that kind of ardent stance against George's characters there is literally not a single POV I would be rooting for anymore. Most of the major characters in this series have done things as bad as Jaime and many of them have not also done anything to compare with the good things he's done.

This ones not for you Baelor.Just I found all the reason people call Jaime a good guy inside your post.So this is just a normal answer to every single one.

Saying Robb was brave really helped Starks really.What did he do for Starks come on people please tell me.

He didn't attacked Tully forces but what change does it make for Stark or Tullys thakns to his unholy family Starks lost everything.

I do hate and love jaime but please don't! just don't ignore what he did and say he is confused.

He is trying to make better choices in life.Thats good for him but its a little too late.Starks are all gone.Targeryans are allgone.Tully family is gone.

Saving Brienne is good.But savng one person never makes someone hero we just think he is hero by one simple act which cost him nothing but a few words.Real heroes make sacrifices.

What about the bad things he did.IF Cersei suddenly changed and started acting nicer and saved Margeary then would you call her a hero too?

Jaime was a corrupt man and he did too many bad things.He is realizing it now but redemtion is out of question for him .He can make good choices and maybe start a new page on his life but he can't change the past he can't be redeeemed.He too realizes that he can't be forgiven for his past sins but he is trying to be a real knight thats it.

[Unimportant]

After reading through all this the bottom line seems to be this: People who see the world in black and white will always hate Jaime because they will never get past the Bran incident and/or the Aerys incident while people who see shades of grey will fall to one side or the other depending on how they value each deed he's done.

Personally I see a rather obvious redemption arc happening with Jaime. Regardless of how you currently view Jaime's character I find it mind boggling that anyone could deny that he's made strides of improvement... even if Jaime's changes haven't taken him out of the 'red' and into the 'black' of your moral compass rating he's still undeniably moved to a nicer shade of red. Hence for those who see things in absolutes, red would still be red.

The part of this I whole thread I find more interesting is the fact that certain people are unable to stay consistent on their stance of things, choosing to view Jaime in aboslutes while allowing themselves to view other characters like Robert in shades of grey. Emotional bias anyone?

[locke and key]

yes let him start the self indulgent crazy treasonous crime then dispense the justice, exactly that way you live up to your oaths and you dont look like oh a king slayer

So it's better to wait for a crime to happen and let millions of innocent people die, just so you don't break an oath! the kingsguard were never told to protect the lives of the innocent at all, Even if he'd killed aerys then he'd still be a kingslayer and then he'd be even worse because he'd not have saved people when he could have, espceically after aerys had caused enough suffering

o.k. so you tell your brother that your dad actually had your wife gang raped. and then made you go, and say to yourself ok glad we got that over with. this in no way can come back to bite me, this won't result in any retaliation were all good now right bro.

tyrion was being irrational at this point if he hadn't been swallowed by his rage, he would have done the rational thing and escaoed first and sought revenge later, when jaime could protect tywin, surely, jaime wouldn't expect his overly cool and calculating brother to attack immediately as opposed to retreating and returning later for the kill.

a good way to help keep your children alive is to put them in a situation thats safe he gave that up with the incest.

thats interesting i always thought the primary responsibilty would be to not sleep with the kings wife in the first place, which is a crime, and not have sex with your sister a modern westeros taboo. im sorry after the incident with bran i dont think he cares much for children.

This was all before jaime started acting like a decent human, this thread is about jaime's redemption arc not events before

you mean like selmy and brienne sure.

and balon swann, loras tyrell, bonifer hasty, justin massey, jorah mormont and others not every other knight in westeros is unture just the majority of ones presnted to us in the kg are

every oath he already broke will be his undoing.

This is about his fate, nothing to do with whether he redeemed himself or not

oh Jamie believes he's coming around a corner alright, but its not gonna happen. he'll probably end up fighting tyrion for casterly rock and strangling cersie, in this next confrontation killing brienne

Why, on earth would he kill brienne?

.

i'm glad we can agree on a character of grey's or dark grey's.

No, jamie ran off with Brienne, because deep down he likes her, she's everything he's not. If he truly wanted to find sansa he would've hired sell swords and the whole nine yards.

If he truly wanted to run off with brienne he would've gone off searching for sansa with her, not remained in KL, and then go on a peacekeeping mission in the riverlands, the fact that he only runs off with brienne when she claims to need his help saving sansa shows that he tryly does want to find sansa, and also do you think he's gonna be that amenable to sellswords after his encounter with the bloody mummers

a heroic thing is something that is done selflessly for others Jamie serves his own interests. even if he tries in his point of view chapters to convince himself otherwise. in the end game when tyrion takes him down it will be epic. i hope bran wargs a dragon and eats him.

It wasn't in his interests to save brienne from a bear

[locke and key]

After reading through all this the bottom line seems to be this: People who see the world in black and white will always hate Jaime because they will never get past the Bran incident and/or the Aerys incident while people who see shades of grey will fall to one side or the other depending on how they value each deed he's done.

Personally I see a rather obvious redemption arc happening with Jaime. Regardless of how you currently view Jaime's character I find it mind boggling that anyone could deny that he's made strides of improvement... even if Jaime's changes haven't taken him out of the 'red' and into the 'black' of your moral compass rating he's still undeniably moved to a nicer shade of red. Hence for those who see things in absolutes, red would still be red.

The part of this I whole thread I find more interesting is the fact that certain people are unable to stay consistent on their stance of things, choosing to view Jaime in aboslutes while allowing themselves to view other characters like Robert in shades of grey. Emotional bias anyone?

:bowdown: :agree: best argument anyone's put on this thread

[WardenOfTheNorth]

After reading through all this the bottom line seems to be this: People who see the world in black and white will always hate Jaime because they will never get past the Bran incident and/or the Aerys incident while people who see shades of grey will fall to one side or the other depending on how they value each deed he's done.

Personally I see a rather obvious redemption arc happening with Jaime. Regardless of how you currently view Jaime's character I find it mind boggling that anyone could deny that he's made strides of improvement... even if Jaime's changes haven't taken him out of the 'red' and into the 'black' of your moral compass rating he's still undeniably moved to a nicer shade of red. Hence for those who see things in absolutes, red would still be red.

The part of this I whole thread I find more interesting is the fact that certain people are unable to stay consistent on their stance of things, choosing to view Jaime in aboslutes while allowing themselves to view other characters like Robert in shades of grey. Emotional bias anyone?

A lot of people overlook his terrible actions while magnifying Tyrion's. It sickens me.

[locke and key]

I understand that people seem to think Jaime Lannister is on some sort of redemption arc just because he had his hand cut off. Let's consider a few things:

• Jaime didn't get his hand cut off to punish him for a crime, he had it cut off for a completely unrelated reason. It's like if you kill someone and then instead of being killed back by a relation of the person you've killed, you're killed by Javier Bardem over a gambling debt. It cannot be called 'justice' or 'revenge', merely 'karma'. And it isn't even that, since instead of being unable to walk he's unable to use a sword to kill more innocent people.
  

Redemtption and revenge are 2 very different things

• How can you feel sorry for him? He hasn't actually changed his actions at all, just the way he thinks about himself. He thinks he is some noble warrior, but no, he's a prick who thinks he is less of a prick.
  

the old jaime wouldn't have saved brienne from a bear, or tried to keep a vow, or sent brienne to get sansa home safely rather than into cersei's hands

• He expresses no regret over Bran's predicament.
  

i can't rememember where, but I'm pretty sure he does a some point

• He considers Tywin Lannister a good man.
  

Redemption is about his actions not his opinions, don't hold them against him

• He continues to defend a family with no claim to the Iron Throne.
  

and You expect him to desert, the family whom he loves, and which contains his own children, as the tullys would say family comes before duty or honour, even you're beloved ned would rather lie about his supposed treasons to save his daughter rather than do the honorable thing and keep telling the truth

I don't necessarily hate him. Actually, that's a lie, I do hate him, but I am just baffled as to why people think he is on a redemption arc. He said he wants to try and save Lord Eddard Stark's Daughters, but its too late for him to try and be good now. I hope he is burned.

EDIT: Perhaps the title should have been "How is Jaime Lannister a good person?" because this is the message I seem to be getting from a lot of threads that don't want Jaime killed, and actually want UnCat to die instead.