Jon's parentage.. is Howland's word going to be enough?

[Lord Ben]

Lets postulate Jon and his Army of the North makes an attempt at the Throne or maybe keep independent. Aegon and his Army of the South wish to keep the Throne or force the North to bend the knee. Lets also assume these two armies are exactly evenly matched and about to do battle.

Varys comes forward and claims Aegon isn't real, everyone believes him. Howland comes forward and claims Jon is Targaryean and rightful heir, everyone believes him.

I think in that situation, and no others, would it make a difference. If anyone wants the throne they'll need an army bigger than "the other guy's", not because Howland Reed swore by the gods old and new and people believed he spoke the truth.

[jsjoslin18]

Who knows what physical evidence Howland has, he could have a letter- proclaiming Jon the heir blah blah blah with the seal of Rhaegar on it.. My question is, would Stannis honor such a letter, if he knew the letter was true?

[lady m]

Who knows what physical evidence Howland has, he could have a letter- proclaiming Jon the heir blah blah blah with the seal of Rhaegar on it.. My question is, would Stannis honor such a letter, if he knew the letter was true?

In what manner? All the letter would mean is that Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen. There are no lands, titles or thrones attached to House Targaryen any longer. The throne currently belongs to House Baratheon and its heirs, none of who, have blonde hair.

Hopefully Stannis wouldn't have Jon executed or assassinated immediately. As Robert would have.

[Bolivar]

If R+L=J is true, I don't expect it to be broadcast to the realm. I much less expect it to radically change the course of Jon's story - there's not enough pages left for that.

It seems likely it would be like Jon's victories and triumphs: something no one in the realm will ever know except him.

[Lion of Judah]

More than likely it will not be enough, but if Benjen were to emerge and confirm the claims of Jon's parentage then that will certainly suffice.

[Free Northman]

The misconception is that Jon the Conqueror will claim the Seven Kingdoms with fire and sword. This is utterly ridiculous, given the time left in the series and Jon's own motivations, not to mention the utter disbelief that the likes of Dorne, the Reach and the West would have regarding his supposed claim.

To loosely quote Shakespeare, Jon will not achieve greatness in the South, he will have greatness thrust upon him.

It is so utterly clear that any conquering down South will be done by Dany, not Jon. That's her whole purpose. Once she has restored the Targaryen rule in the South, there can be no more naysayers. The remaining southron lords will accept whoever she proclaims as her heir.

In the meantime Jon will become King in the North as a result of Robb's will. I can even see him leading the North to oppose Daenerys's attempts to push past the Neck, only for some massive revelation to occur, revealing his identity and bringing him and Daenerys onto the same side.

Jon will never fight Aegon or Stannis for the Throne, simply because both of them will be long gone by the time this issue arises. Daenerys is the one who will matter. What the rest believe or don't believe is meaningless.

[DavosSeaworthy]

Howland's word will be enough for Jon. Robb seems to have made Jon a legit Stark, and I think he would rather have the Strak name than the Targaryen name. The only way I see Jon being king is if the people want him to be king after a massive battle with the Others and he is viewed as a compromise king, just like his LC election, which would be way too fluffy. In the end, I think that Jon will find out that he is a Stark and Targ, take the Stark name since Robb named him a Stark.

[Ame]

Will Jon be the same person after death if he survives? Cat has little in common with UnCat; when parlaying with Renly and Stannis she isn't interested in avenging Ned she just wants to save her daughters but look at her now. Jon will be full of surprises whatever he does.

[IRON BANK]

howlands word wont just be enough though. i could see a culmination of evidence and events. that would put jon over the top, 1st the lords who know, howland reed. 2nd the lords and knights who suspect or can correlate a time line from 1st mentioned evidence from howland reed, like Selmy, Ashara, or any one else who marched during roberts rebillion. 3rd all the propdecies that are gonna sart to line up. 5 most of your enemies have dropped like flies. and 6th when you arrive riding a warged dragon, a dire wolf, wield light bringer, and have the best look'n woman in westeros on your arm. i think most people will believe.

[Ribupr]

I think Howland Reed is in Winterfell right now with allies, and somehow played a part in trying to get Jon from the Wall. In agreement with Apple Martini's (Great Northern Conspiracy) theory, I believe the North is ready to land a fat blow on the Boltons.

Inevitably, Jon will leave the Wall, and Howland will present a few things as proof of who Jon is....

1.) Eye witness testimony from himself, and Lyanna's wet-nurse (I believe there was one)

2.) A Targaryen wedding cloak from Lyanna's tomb (which explains why Ned built it)

3.) A will from Rhaegar and Lyanna from Lyanna's tomb

4.) Also a personal item from Rhaegar that lends more proof to the authenticity of the story

After this, and with the details of Robb's will, the North will accept a Stark child with a "Dragon" surname. Because it was the "Dragons" they bowed to. And because Stannis feels some regret for choosing Robert over Aerys/Rhaegar in Robert's Rebellion, Stannis will bend the knee as well.

Even though I am a die hard Jon fan, I (objectively) do think this is highly likely to happen, and will be surprised if it doesn't.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

The misconception is that Jon the Conqueror will claim the Seven Kingdoms with fire and sword. This is utterly ridiculous, given the time left in the series and Jon's own motivations, not to mention the utter disbelief that the likes of Dorne, the Reach and the West would have regarding his supposed claim.

To loosely quote Shakespeare, Jon will not achieve greatness in the South, he will have greatness thrust upon him.

It is so utterly clear that any conquering down South will be done by Dany, not Jon. That's her whole purpose. Once she has restored the Targaryen rule in the South, there can be no more naysayers. The remaining southron lords will accept whoever she proclaims as her heir.

In the meantime Jon will become King in the North as a result of Robb's will. I can even see him leading the North to oppose Daenerys's attempts to push past the Neck, only for some massive revelation to occur, revealing his identity and bringing him and Daenerys onto the same side.

Jon will never fight Aegon or Stannis for the Throne, simply because both of them will be long gone by the time this issue arises. Daenerys is the one who will matter. What the rest believe or don't believe is meaningless.

What if the wolves come? Yield! There's tons of foreshadowing for Arya versus Varys, Bloodraven being involved in the Aegon plot, Sansa playing the game and Dany struggling with Dorne and the faith. I agree Jon won't fight Stannis he'll be dead or in a black cloak), but him sending his family and allies to end the game as quickly as possible with a quick strike or succession of quick strikes could easily happen.

"The wolf wanted to hunt, but what? A white wolf in a white woods in the black of night. They'll never see him coming."

[Sweetgirl205]

So Howland Reed remains the only man alive who was with Ned at the ToJ, and who can vouch for Jon's parentage (assuming R+L=J). Let's say Mr Reed gets out of wherever he's hiding and declares to the world that Jon is indeed Rhaegar's son, and the rightful king.

Is his word going to be enough to convince Westeros though? How much weight does an elusive crannogman's word carry? I can see this being dismissed by the Lannisters or Varys as just another wild tale. Similar to how they dismissed Stannis' statements about the Baratheon children being born out of incest.

Which leads me to a crackpot.. I think there is irrefutable proof of Jon's parentage hidden somewhere. And that somewhere is Lyanna's crypt in Winterfell.

Thoughts?

I totally agree!! We all know who Jon's parents were, but its going to take some real proof for Jon to believe Ned lied to him. Remember, Ned had a reputation for being totally honest at all times.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I wonder if Rhaegar's most prized possession could be in Lyanna's tomb- his harp? A second item that would give credence to Jon's parentage could be a dragon egg. There doesn't seem to be any in Westeros so one dragon egg would be enough to make people believe.

But I think those items would be hidden in the crypt only for Jon's benefit- so he believes the story when Howland tells him. I don't think Jon would use those items to pave his way to the throne.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Let's think about it logically, Let's say that Howland indeed knows the 'true' parentage of Jon and he was hiding it for 16 years. Why was he keeping it a secret? Because Ned told him. Why? to save Jon's life. Why Howland reed, who promised Ned not to tell anyone, will reveal his parentage after Ned's death? It would be shitting on a man's life work after his death.

[Lord Ben]

We had an entire civil war where Robert tried to take the Throne because he didn't like the King and then another where Renly was clearly the younger brother with the least valid claim.

Why would it matter who Howland Reed says is the heir? It hasn't made a difference the last couple Civil war's over the Throne and I don't see why it's going to start to matter now.

[lady m]

I wonder if Rhaegar's most prized possession could be in Lyanna's tomb- his harp? A second item that would give credence to Jon's parentage could be a dragon egg. There doesn't seem to be any in Westeros so one dragon egg would be enough to make people believe.

If there are identifying symbols or marks on it the harp makes a ton of sense given how much the Bael the Bard story has been used in relation to Jon. Targ wedding cloak, dragon egg, not sure what else would work.

[Masha]

Nobody seems to answer this question.

Assuming that R+L=J

Assuming that there is a definite proof of Jon's parentage and legitimacy

Assuming both of these true, wouldn't that make Jon's oath to Nightwatch invalid (regardless if he died from his wound and thus was released from oaths), because he swore from false name ie - Jon Snow, while his legit name would be for example "Aegon" (many people on boards like to call him so) Targaryen. Just as contract signed from false name nowdays, even if assumed true at a time, is not valid, so should be that oath, right?

And I also think something is hidden in Lyanna's tomb, mostly because in his dreams, Jon gets more and more afraid as he approaches her tomb. In GRRM books, remembering or closing in to a truth is often associated with character being in pain or being terribly afraid of unknown fear (ex. Bran remembering his fall)

[Sailor's Wife]

Agree on Ashara. Not sure she could even prove to anyone she is Ashara after all of this time. And agree that Jon Snow would not want to be king. I think that more than anything Jon wants to be a Stark. Also agree that the main thing is for Jon to find out his parentage. It may likely be he is fine with no one else knowing, even if he is royal. Maybe, especially if he is royal.

[The guy from the Vale]

Nobody seems to answer this question.

Assuming that R+L=J

Assuming that there is a definite proof of Jon's parentage and legitimaty

Isn't that make his oath to Nightwatch moot (regardless of potential death and release from oaths), because he swore from false name ie - Jon Snow, while his legit name would be "Aegon" (many people here seem to think so) Targaryen. Just as contract signed from false name, even if assumed true at a time, is not valid, so should be oath, right?

And I also think something is hidden in Lyanna's tomb, mostly because in his dreams, Jon gets more and more afraid as he approaches her tomb. In GRRM books, remembering or closing in to a truth is often associate to character being in paid or being terribly afraid of unknown fear (ex. Bran remembering his fall)

No, that would be a mere technicality at best, in fact even worse than Jon being released because he died ("And now his watch is ended"). There's also the question if always keeping your word is all that good when it becomes apparent that said oath does more harm than good. I want Jon to break the letter of the Night's Watch vow, because it's the only way for him to keep its spirit.

[lcd52]

Who knows what physical evidence Howland has, he could have a letter- proclaiming Jon the heir blah blah blah with the seal of Rhaegar on it.. My question is, would Stannis honor such a letter, if he knew the letter was true?

Yes. Davos says there is no man more just. Also, remember "My brother or my king; that was a hard choosing." First time, he chose his brother. This time, he'll choose his king.

I agree Selmy must know something; he knew his sworn brothers, he'd know they didn't die in front of that tower unless something precious was in it. He may believe that, like Ashara's daughter, the child was stillborn. He also, when he entered Dany's service, offered her her FATHER'S secrets. They were hers by right. He offered to tell her about all who came before, but the only secrets he offered her were her father's. And she didn't ask him about Rhaegar and Lyanna. She asked him if Rhaegar's Dornish wife treated him so very badly.