Is Syrio Forel really dead?

[Sanset]

Because a situation in which Syrio has to "simply" do something is not a "pretty hopeless situation"?

(...) It is a story with dragons, yes, but it's realistic fantasy. (...)

I agree with "realistic" and I also agree with "fantasy". We don't have a PoV to know when did "the candles start to burn" but we've seen that magic works (at least) since AGoT Prologue. So, I agree, it's not "simple" for Syrio Forel to survive, it's "a pretty hopeless situation", yes but: Magic works. And real Syrio could be perfectly dead and that "dancing master" could perfectly be a Faceless Man because (now we know) while they are in a mission they create a realistic story to achieve their ends, as we've seen in "The Ugly Little Girl" (ADwD ch.64).

It's OK if Syrio Forel died at the end of AGoT. I just don't like to close the door in an absolute way because we've read it from Arya's innocent eyes. After five books we have more info to re-read some situations from the previous books. I prefer to wait (for Winter and Spring) and see. These FM are still too mysterious to take things for granted.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

GRRM may have killed him but sooner or later Syrio will escape the Sarlacc with his jet pack, it is unavoidable

[Weirwood Druid]

If a Game of thrones didn't put that stupid "There is only god and his name is Death" line this theory would have died along time ago. It is annoying to read/hear the same flimsy arguments time and time again.There is the yield argument, but that seems unlikely with Syrio as his determination to fight on is clear. The Stark allies were all being eradicated that night, so why should Syrio have been spared? If Syrio was spared Meryn Trant would have mentioned it, we already have had plenty of POV's who detailed happenings of that night and the further fate of Stark loyalists. The fact that he hasn't been mentioned can also mean because he wasn't worth being mentioned, remember when Jaime murdered Aerys and the pyromancer Rossart? Everyone in Westeros knows about the death of Aerys but no one bothered to inquire about Rossart.

Then there is the part of Rorge and Biter. But this raises more question marks about Jaqen H'ghar than it supports the whole Syrio is alive theory. If Jaqen is an elite Faceless men then why did he get captured? We known little about Rorge and why he is sacred of him, Maybe he threatened Jaqen and Jaqen decided to gave him a "hint".

[Knight Of Winter]

If a Game of thrones didn't put that stupid "There is only god and his name is Death" line this theory would have died along time ago

While I agree with most of your post (especially the second sentence), HBO show has nothing to do with theory that Syrio is alive - it was suggested and discussed way before show started.

I thought Syrio=FM Jaqen theory has been disproved by text - as Ned gives Jaqen, Rorge and Biter to Joren way before Syrio is confronted by Meryn Trant.

[Sanset]

(...)

I thought Syrio=FM Jaqen theory has been disproved by text - as Ned gives Jaqen, Rorge and Biter to Joren way before Syrio is confronted by Meryn Trant.

Syrio Forell can be another FM, not necessarily has to be Jaqen H'ghar/Alchemist.

[Weirwood Druid]

While I agree with most of your post (especially the second sentence), HBO show has nothing to do with theory that Syrio is alive - it was suggested and discussed way before show started.

I thought Syrio=FM Jaqen theory has been disproved by text - as Ned gives Jaqen, Rorge and Biter to Joren way before Syrio is confronted by Meryn Trant.

I know, but what I meant(and should have specified more) was that line reignited the whole tired debate with people going "See! See! a secret hint! he's still alive!".

Which made me realise that people really just want to see him alive again because they like him so much, wishful thinking. Forgetting simple things like: Syrio is from Braavos, so of course he will have that culture/religious heritage of the god of death that doesn't mean instantly he is a faceless man.

[Steve Moss II]

I believe Syrio is dead, killed fighting against hopeless odds despite his skill and courage doing the right thing, buying time for Arya to escape. He was one of the few good warriors we've seen in the story so far.

I hope I'm wrong and that he made it out. But my optimism is not limitless.

[Ser Shaggydog]

unfortunately. hes dead

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Yes she does.

She squirmed out into the yard, glancing around warily as she climbed to her feet. The castle seemed deserted. The Red Keep was neverdeserted. All the people must be hiding inside, their doors barred.

WOW. First of all she THINKS the people "must be hiding", meaning, she doesn't know. Second, she's talking about the people that would normally be running around the Red Keep must have gone to their homes/towers/etc... and barred their doors. That is NOT saying the doors of the Red Keep are barred. Just wow...

[Light a wight tonight]

unfortunately. hes dead

Prove it.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Syrio Forell can be another FM, not necessarily has to be Jaqen H'ghar/Alchemist.

Or he could have been a FM and swapped with Jaqen in Yoren's cart while it was unattended, or at some point along the road.

Again, though, these are just remote possibilities. I've said several times that my guess is that he's dead, but it's not stated in the text one way or the other, so it's certainly not a fact that he is.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Now that's where I have a problem. It is a story with dragons, yes, but it's realistic fantasy. I think that Martin was undoubtedly 100% setting up a sequence in which death seems imminent. That's what I'm absolute about, and I think that reading it in a way where Syrio has a good chance of survival is reading it wrong. Maybe it comes from him knocking the gurads out, but I think Martin was pretty clear in his description that this little show ended and sh*t got serious...

Now, can Martin pull off a Syrio survival - of course. Has he brought seemingly dead people back from the dead? Yes, he has. Does he like using red herrings - yes, undoubtedly. All I'm saying is that a Syrio escape would be miraculous, and that, as per his own words (which I didn't need as I figured it out from the text by Martin's good description of the situation) is that Syrio was in a seemingly hopeless situation. Martin didn't want us to wonder what will happen when Syrio and Trant engage in combat. Martin wanted us to think Syrio will die. I don't see how one could read it in a different manner.

I simply don't think it's a red herring. It's just one of those things that are not spelled out. An example I like to use is when Cat sees Roose kill Robb, she doesn't say Roose, but a man with a pink splattered cloak or something like that. But yes, it was Roose.

Oh I agree that he clearly wanted us to think that Syrio was in a "seemingly hopeless situation", but if he disarmed Trant, his situation would suddenly look a lot more survivable, was my point. There were numerous opportunities for Syrio to be confirmed dead. Arya could have witnessed it, Sansa could have seen his head on a spike, Trant could have mentioned it to Cersei, and on and on.

Lack of confirmation is certainly not proof that he's alive, but it's also not proof that he's dead. Then there was Arya thinking something about Jaqen reminded her of Syrio, and then there was Rorge and Biter (two pretty bad dudes) who were frightened of Jaqen, which is some sort of weirdness.

Those could certainly be Red Herrings, but so could the "seemingly hopeless situation"... We simply don't know the answer, and I'd prefer if people didn't just claim to know something they don't. Theorize all you want, believe whatever you want to believe, but people shouldn't pass their opinions as fact, and then attempt to use that to talk down to others.

[Kanali]

No, he's a secret Targaryen who's hatched a dragon of his own and will soon return to sit the Iron Throne. All that stuff about being stabbed was just a ruse. A ruse I tell you.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

No, he's a secret Targaryen who's hatched a dragon of his own and will soon return to sit the Iron Throne. All that stuff about being stabbed was just a ruse. A ruse I tell you.

This kind of attempt to belittle people's opinions by equating them to something intentionally ridiculous is not in any way helpful nor constructive to an adult discussion of a topic.

[mr spartacus]

Who would be worth more as a trophy head on the spike? Septa Mordane's or Syrio Forrel, the First Sword of Braavos?

If Syrio was dead his head would be on a spike next to Ned's.

[Lummel]

Who would be worth more as a trophy head on the spike? Septa Mordane's or Syrio Forrel, the First Sword of Braavos?

If Syrio was dead his head would be on a spike next to Ned's.

Septa Mordane's clearly. Syrio is down as Arya's dancing master on the hit list. He doesn't have much profile in King's Landing and is only an occasional employee of the Stark household.

[mr spartacus]

Septa Mordane's clearly. Syrio is down as Arya's dancing master on the hit list. He doesn't have much profile in King's Landing and is only an occasional employee of the Stark household.

A dancing teacher caught in the act of teaching a daughter of Eddard Stark swordplay.

It stretches the imagination that neither Varys or Littlefinger knew the real identity of the dancing master.Morgane taught needlecraft and etiquette, Forel taught a martial art in essence so I think he would be the bigger trophy.Trant would have revelled in the notoriety of dispatching Syrio yet he makes no boast or mention of this later in the storyline.My explanation of how Syrio Forel escaped would be that he bribed Trant.He does not run well why run when you can bribe?

[mormont]

Who would be worth more as a trophy head on the spike? Septa Mordane's or Syrio Forrel, the First Sword of Braavos?

If Syrio was dead his head would be on a spike next to Ned's.

Possibly not next to Ned's, but in fact Syrio's head may well have been on a spike. The only POV who ever sees those heads is Sansa: and Sansa never met Syrio. She has no idea what he looks like, and even if she did, we're told in that very chapter (and in other places) that severed heads dipped in tar and spiked are not easy to recognise.

Alternatively Syrio might have taken a serious head wound and so isn't on a spike for that reason.

As arguments go, this one about Syrio's head not being on a spike is pretty thin.

[mr spartacus]

Possibly not next to Ned's, but in fact Syrio's head may well have been on a spike. The only POV who ever sees those heads is Sansa: and Sansa never met Syrio. She has no idea what he looks like, and even if she did, we're told in that very chapter (and in other places) that severed heads dipped in tar and spiked are not easy to recognise.

Alternatively Syrio might have taken a serious head wound and so isn't on a spike for that reason.

As arguments go, this one about Syrio's head not being on a spike is pretty thin.

Sansa didn't know Syrio that is true but you would think Joffrey would take great pleasure in pointing out his head considering Trant was there and also his previous disgrace at Arya and Nymeria's humiliation of him.

So many if's and but's lead me to believe he is not dead and will reappear at some point.

Pretty hopeless? Not today.

[mormont]

Sansa didn't know Syrio that is true but you would think Joffrey would take great pleasure in pointing out his head considering Trant was there and also his previous disgrace at Arya and Nymeria's humiliation of him.

No, I wouldn't think that at all.