The guy from the Vale Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Assuming he escaped, and assuming he died are both assumptions, because neither is explicitly stated. One is certainly more likely than the other, but that doesn't make it fact. The FM stuff after that would require many more assumptions, on that we are in agreement, but those are just theories that IF Syrio were alive, what would have been his purpose to live. You don't need those theories for Syrio to escape.But when assuming he escaped, you have to explain why noone is looking for Syrio, particularly Syrio accompanying Arya. You also have to explain how he escaped the building. Syrio dying just assumes what we're given by the text, and one single sword strike by Trant. Syrio being alive needs to fill many more holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Why would Syrio need a disguise after he escaped, when Arya didn't get one for a couple of days (which basically involved cutting her hair)?Please explain to me then how Syrio would escape the Tower of the Hand without taking the route only Arya knew? Noone else escaped from there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Please explain to me then how Syrio would escape the Tower of the Hand without taking the route only Arya knew? Noone else escaped from there!And we know Arya was the only one that knew that route because of why? Besides, we'd just seen Syrio defeat 5 Lannister guards with a wooden training sword, you really think he'd have trouble getting out even the front door if he chose to go that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 And we know Arya was the only one that knew that route because of why? Besides, we'd just seen Syrio defeat 5 Lannister guards with a wooden training sword, you really think he'd have trouble getting out even the front door if he chose to go that way?The 'front door' in this case being a barred, guarded gate with a moat filled with spikes: yes. I think he'd have trouble. More to the point, we'd certainly have heard about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 But when assuming he escaped, you have to explain why noone is looking for Syrio, particularly Syrio accompanying Arya. You also have to explain how he escaped the building. Syrio dying just assumes what we're given by the text, and one single sword strike by Trant. Syrio being alive needs to fill many more holes.No, Syrio being alive only needs the assumption that he disabled Trant temporarily (some sort of blow to the head that knocks him out). We saw Arya walk out, and we saw Syrio defeat 5 guards at once with a wooden training sword, so no assumptions required for a subsequent escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Yes, I think he would have trouble doing so. It would certainly be remarked upon, if nothing else.As for only Arya (and Varys...) knowing that route, it's mainly because Arya is the one who chased cats around the Red Keep. Syrio never did so (and how would he? He's an old man).ETA: We saw Syrio hitting Trant on the head. Guess what a helmet is for? Trant was not harmed by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 The 'front door' in this case being a barred, guarded gate with a moat filled with spikes: yes. I think he'd have trouble. More to the point, we'd certainly have heard about it.Where in the text is it that the Tower of the Hand was barred and had a moat filled with spikes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Yes, I think he would have trouble doing so. It would certainly be remarked upon, if nothing else.As for only Arya (and Varys...) knowing that route, it's mainly because Arya is the one who chased cats around the Red Keep. Syrio never did so (and how would he? He's an old man).ETA: We saw Syrio hitting Trant on the head. Guess what a helmet is for? Trant was not harmed by that.Syrio was the one that told Arya to chase those cats to begin with. You're assuming he didn't know about the secret way. I don't know whether he did or he didn't since it wasn't stated one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Where in the text is it that the Tower of the Hand was barred and had a moat filled with spikes?The tower of the Hand is inside the Red Keep. The Red Keep is a castle. Ring any bells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 The tower of the Hand is inside the Red Keep. The Red Keep is a castle. Ring any bells?Yes, but where does it say that the Red Keep was barred before the assault on the Tower of the Hand? Or are you assuming it was barred before that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiasyd Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Someone (sorry, I cannot remember who) made a really nice argument a few days ago: If Trant is able to easily destroy Syrio, he should be able to be at the heels of Arya, with bells, whistles, guards, hunting hounds and whatnot. Since none of this happened - and what I mean is, the surroundings of TotH and RK seems somewhat peaceful from Arya POV immediately after the Stark pogrom in TohT, we can assume that Trant at least needed some time to resolve his stand-off with Syrio. This could range from taking too long to chop Syrio in tiny little pieces to being knocked out after falling head down to the ground - impossible to know what trespassed.So what we can infer is that Syrio made a good job of stalling Trant, and only later KL is in lockdown and they even produced a fake Stark at the harbor... And stretching the argument a little bit ;) - if Syrio was able to stall Trant, it wasn't as easy for Trant to finish him as most people tend to argue.Regardless, I don't particularly like Syrio, I think there is a lot of other interesting characters around (dead and alive), but this is one of several unresolved very-minor mysteries of ASOIAF - if it wasn't a mystery, GRRM wouldn't need to say "draw your own conclusions", he could simply answer it as he has done with Rhaegar's fate, your Brienne's pre-hanging word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I don't think Syrio is alive. I just didn't like how he lost to Meryn Trant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser_Cortnay_Penrose Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 My take is that Syrio as a kickass swordsman with great courage is dead, because that was the extent of his character and he played his role: teaching Arya the basics of BRaavosi badassery and allowing her to escape the Red Keep. I don't think that GRRM would desecrate such an awesome death by undying him. However, I could maybe see this possibility: Trant wounded Syrio grievously and went on to give chase to Arya. Then someone else came across Syrio dying on the floor and took him to safety and saved his life. So IF this happened, we MIGHT see Syrio again, but as a maimed man incapable of fighting, but who might provide Arya or some other character with advice or additional training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakman Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Syrio is dead. Dead dead dead dead dead. Meryn Trant's sword went right through that stick and into Syrio, where, surprise surprise, it killed him.Syrio is NOT Jaqen. This is not something that happened or will be revealed, b/c it is not the case.How do we prove that?Jaqen was in the BLACK CELLS. Where the worst criminals are put. Rorge and Biter were there. Can you begin to imagine why they would put a foreigner who was defending a girl in a cell like that? Or why the Lannisters would bother to keep him alive? Oh wait, I can't either.So no, Syrio was not a faceless man who was injured/captured/teleported into the Black Cells where he changed his face and GOT BETTER FROM THE STABBING and became Jaqen. Will people please stop this madness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser No One Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Syrio is dead. Dead dead dead dead dead. Meryn Trant's sword went right through that stick and into Syrio, where, surprise surprise, it killed him.Damn, I missed that part in the book. I'm gonna have to read it again.If I had paid a little more attention and not missed this sentence, it would have saved me a lot of wondering about Syrio's fate...Seriously, of course he was in a desperate situation. But wasn't facing five armed men with a wooden sword a desperate situation to begin with? It's just a mystery and it's completely normal to wonder if he's really dead, because GRRM never answered that question... He's not usually shy about showing death, why would he be where Syrio is concerned?I don't know if he's alive or not. I'd say he probably isn't, because he played his part in the development of Arya's character, but I don't see how you can completely rule out his survival...IMO, the only way he can come back is as a "target" of the Faceless Men, which could lead Arya to leave them to save his life. After all, she is in Braavos, where he used to live, and she'll probably have to leave the service of the Many Faced God eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakman Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD HE'S DEAD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Seriously, of course he was in a desperate situation. But wasn't facing five armed men with a wooden sword a desperate situation to begin with? Not quite as desperate, since he had a weapon that could actually harm them, and they apparently were drafted yesterday and handed a weapon with zero training. Facing Trant is a whole 'nother bag of desperate. The kind you don't walk away from.He's not usually shy about showing death, why would he be where Syrio is concerned?Because the POV, through whose eyes we see everything in GRRM's writing, leaves the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Yes, but where does it say that the Red Keep was barred before the assault on the Tower of the Hand? Or are you assuming it was barred before that?In the Arya chapter, she looks over the central yard of the Red Keep, and notices that all the doors are barred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanset Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 At least we can't deny Meryn Trant decided not to run after Arya. So, surely something kept him busy or made him change his mind. Syrio Forel was right there to stop him and we know magic exists in Westeros. At least Syrio didn't die so easily and so fast. He could had been in a hopeless situation but he didn't gave up. We can safely assume that, because Meryn Trant didn't chase after Arya as he is supposed to do if Syrio wasn't a problem for him. (Is a dead man a problem in Westeros? :bang: )It is an assumption that Meryn Trant said the truth to Cersei, the same assumption is to believe that he lied to her. He's not like Eddard Stark and we know that even Ned can lie sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 At least we can't deny Meryn Trant decided not to run after Arya...That can be denied. All we can say is that Trant didn't catch up with Arya who was running helter skelter through rooms and windows to get away. If Trant pursued her, how close he was behind her at any one time are unknowable from Arya's POV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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