Is Syrio Forel really dead?

[Me262]

Uh, how does that work? Total amnesia, personality override and remote controlling?

Well, I don't know how this works. But in the books FM are presented as being without identity. They can have all the faces and all the personalities, but lacking their own.

I would very much like to know, how you are picturing them to your self? Not taunting you, really curious. Did you get a different impression of them? Thank you in advance.

[Mikkel]

I would not be surprised if it turned out he was Jaqen and there was a plan to recruit Arya all the time.

Why would anyone have a plan to recruit Arya prior to her showing up in Braavos? Even if they did (for whatever reason), most of the things that happened to her were completely impossible to plan, let alone execute IMO. What were they going to do, kidnap her? Eddards death can hardly have been planned, and Syrio starts training her a long time before that. Remember, if Ned hadn't died, she would have been sent back to the North with Sansa (and we'd have a very different story, so going any further down that line seems pointless).

[Peptalk]

It is highly probable that Syrio is dead, but since we don't have actual evidence (such as a body or someone stating clearly that he is dead in the book) I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out he somehow, miraculously, survived. If he, say for instance, was a Faceless Man as suggested by some, it is very possible he disarmed and defeated Ser Meryn and took his face. But in that case - shouldn't he long since have disbanded this disguise and left King's Landing? Syrio would certainly have somewhere better to be than remain in the King's Service?

[Errant Bard]

Well, I don't know how this works. But in the books FM are presented as being without identity. They can have all the faces and all the personalities, but lacking their own.

Huh, no, they are no presented like that, it's only the hooey they feed Arya, which in itself is not actually worse than what is (supposedly) said to new recruits at boot camps (you're not a man, you're a weapon, yadda yadda.) Are soldiers without identity after boot camp?

[Lord Damian]

It is not 100% that he died but it is more than 50% he did unless..... he picked up one of the "real" swords from the fallen Lannester Red Cloaks to use against the Kingsguard, after his wooden lead-filled practice sword broke.

[Me262]

Huh, no, they are no presented like that, it's only the hooey they feed Arya, which in itself is not actually worse than what is (supposedly) said to new recruits at boot camps (you're not a man, you're a weapon, yadda yadda.) Are soldiers without identity after boot camp?

Ok, thank you for your thoughts on the matter. I will have to rethink this, but for now I still believe, there is something different and more sinister going on under the roof of FM. Not quite an ordinary boot camp, IMHO.

P.S. Just occured to me that you have provided the people, who believe Syrio is FM with some new material. He tells Arya that she is a sword. :-)

[Errant Bard]

Ok, thank you for your thoughts on the matter. I will have to rethink this, but for now I still believe, there is something different and more sinister going on under the roof of FM. Not quite an ordinary boot camp, IMHO.

Well, while nobody can be devoid of identity, and the FM really are not that hardcore on the indoctrination front (a weakness from GRRM, who does not want to spent too much time on saving Arya from a sect mentality, I would guess,) they still are a sect, and the "you are not a man, you're a weapon" things do have an utility for those who say it: It's brainwashing, and it happens every day in the real world, where I think you'll agree, nobody can become "noone", what's played on is merely opinions.

I see it like that: Arya's formation is pretty much secret service training, the "noone" stuff is method acting training. We've see some FM, none were devoid of identity, they are just good at lying.

Having said that, being 007 necessarily impacts James Bond's identity, and inversely James surely had to put himself in a specific mindset to become 007... what you do is a big part of who you are. Was it Nietzsche who said that the mind is a plaything of the body?

[kephv]

personality override

Probably this. The training is just to get rid of their basic habits and to make sure they're completely obedient -- the bootcamp stuff, as you said. Then comes the faces and the element of magic (like the memories Arya has from the ugly girl) to help form the illusion that they are that person. And though we really don't see that wiht Arya, she was only the ugly girl for a little while. It may be stronger depending on who the person is or how long they wear their face.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

Syrio Forell is a Faceless Man, after knocking the Lannister men senseless, he killed Ser Meryn Trant and took his place.

It is known.

Yes. It is known, but most people don't seem to know. They know nothing. Only you and I.

It is highly probable that Syrio is dead, but since we don't have actual evidence (such as a body or someone stating clearly that he is dead in the book) I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out he somehow, miraculously, survived. If he, say for instance, was a Faceless Man as suggested by some, it is very possible he disarmed and defeated Ser Meryn and took his face. But in that case - shouldn't he long since have disbanded this disguise and left King's Landing? Syrio would certainly have somewhere better to be than remain in the King's Service?

No evidence to support Syrio's death makes it suspect. Also, how much better of a spot do you need to get your bearings on what's going on in the realm? Maybe this particular FM's duty is to spy on the Queen.

Well yes, its Syrio's cliche, which is why I used it.

While in general agreement with Lummel and EB on this one - Arya needs to grow to be Arya, not just have a succession of mentors, my point is really slightly different.

Its only people who look with their heart, who actively want Syrio to live, who suggest that he might be alive still, and to do so they have to blatantly ignore a variety of pertinent facts.

The main problem isn't to establish a future role for Syrio - thats a minor problem generated by the desire to see him again. The main problem is deliberately ignoring the evidence we are given.

All of the evidence says Syrio is dead, when looked at objectively. Its only a technical possibility that he is not, generated purely by the fact that we didn't see him die ourselves. There is no actual evidence that suggests he might have lived. None. Just possibilities, mostly invented.

Conclusion 1: There is no taking prisoner here and no running away. Syrio or Trant must die or Trant must be incapacitated.

Three outcomes, none of which we are certain of. Try again.

Fact 3: Trant is seen soon afterward (next day IIRC) with no sign of injury

Fact 4: During their short fight Syrio hit Trant repeatedly but could not hurt him due to the armour - thats while he still had a weapon

Fact 5: Trant then disarmed Syrio at close range. Syrio has just been beaten by Trant, and is withinTrant's reach, unarmed, with Trant ready to attack him and with purpose to kill. Then we stopped seeing the fight as our eyes fled the scene.

Note 1: the guardsmens scattered weapons won't suit Syrio's water dancer style.

Conclusion 2: Syrio did not incapacitate Trant. Or kill him.

Fact 3: This means nothing. Syrio could pose as him if he were a faceless man (which is my main idea) so that doesn't matter.

Fact 4: This is called testing the waters. Looking for weaknesses.

Fact 5: Syrio took out 5 Lannister redcloaks armed with nothing but a stick. You say that Trant beat Syrio when he was disarmed? It's called dodging. Why the hell do you think Syrio is called a water dancer? Because he looks so much like Gene Kelly?

Note 1: Syrio demonstrates knowledge on this weaponry when he tells Arya that he does not fight like the knights do, hacking and slashing, or something to that effect. They might not suit his style, but that doesn't mean he can't/won't use them. It's called making the best out of a bad situation.

Fact 6: The Lannisters set a trap at the docks looking for a young girl alone, not a young girl with an astonishing dangerous retainer

Fact 7: Arya lost and alone could be assumed likely to die. Arya with a retainer who just killed or incapacited 5 guardsmen with a training weapon and a KG is a major problem for the Lannster, which they don't appear to be concerned about - bear in mind that if Syrio escaped they have to assume the worst, that he and Arya are still together.

Conclusion 3: Syrio did not escape.

Fact 6: Just like with Rickon and Bran after the Sack of Winterfell. They know it's dangerous to stay together, or at least Syrio does. Even if Syrio wasn't a Faceless Man, but just survived, he would be aware of this.

Fact 7: That's never announced. Meryn Forel/Syrio Trant could just have told the Lannisters "I killed the Braavo" and be done with it.

All that leaves is utter crackpot nonsense about Syrio being a FM (which has no real supporting evidence and runs counter to everything we know about Syrio) and either swaping with Trant (FM change their faces, yes, but not their entire bodies sizes and structures) or with Jaquen (which fails as Jaquen was caged before Syrio was killed).

Oh, so Syrio can't have made the stories up to get in Ned's service to be close to the court? And you know exactly what a FM can and cannot change? Then you must be GRRM. What are you doing on this forum? GET BACK TO WORK!

There simply isn't any room for Syrio not to be dead.

Yes, there is.

[kiasyd]

I propose to approach this dilemma with skepticism and teleology:

1. Last time we saw Syrio, he was alive, albeit in peril.
   
2. GRRM provides evidence of death for most of the minor Stark household characters, either through Ned, Arya or Sansa POVs, including Septa Mordane, Fat Tom, Hullen, etc. which are arguably less important than Syrio, Arya's first tutor.
   

From a skeptic perspective (1) means that he could be alive or dead.

From a teleological perspective, what is the purpose of GRRM from (2)? He simply wants us not to be sure of it - we are effectively in Arya's shoes, ignorant of Syrio's fate. We can assume one way or the other, but Syrio is effectively the embodiment of Schroedinger's cat. :-)

And I believe GRRM will never reveal it one way or the other, even after the series end. :shocked:

[Lummel]

...From a skeptic perspective (1) means that he could be alive or dead...

From a sceptical perspective he is dead. Anything else requires believing the fantastical as evidenced above! :laugh:

OK so this is a fantasy book so there is some scope for that, but the series isn't called "The Song of Syrio" and presumably for a reason.

[Mikkel]

"The Song of Syrio"

I'd buy that. I'm sure he had many interesting adventures as First Sword of Braavos. :cool4:

[Lummel]

I'd buy that. I'm sure he had many interesting adventures as First Sword of Braavos. :cool4:

Judging by the number of SYRIO LIVES! threads that we've had over the years you wouldn't be the only one.

[kiasyd]

From a sceptical perspective he is dead. Anything else requires believing the fantastical as evidenced above! :laugh:

Skepticism needs evidence. Did you assume that Arya was dead when the Hound hit her in the head with the axe? It's very likely that I will die if someone hit me in the head with an axe - even the blunt side - from horseback. Yet without evidence, there is no certainty.

My point is: This is (and probably will forever be) left open purposefully by GRRM - you can assume either way, but it is an assumption.

[Lummel]

Skepticism needs evidence. Did you assume that Arya was dead when the Hound hit her in the head with the axe? It's very likely that I will die if someone hit me in the head with an axe - even the blunt side - from horseback. Yet without evidence, there is no certainty.

My point is: This is (and probably will forever be) left open purposefully by GRRM - you can assume either way, but it is an assumption.

Personally I would say that scepticism is about doubt not evidence. My doubt springs from the absence of evidence for SYRIO LIVES plus the inherent unlikelyness of the various scenarios for the prolongation of his existence measured against the realities of Martinworld as established in the novels. And yes, first time through I did assume that Arya was dead after being hit by an axe.

I'm sure it will not be explicitly stated by GRRM that Syrio is dead within the story, lots of things are not and will not be spelt out - GRRM doesn't seem to like to explain everything. Obviously some readers do and will imagine all kinds of happy scenarios in that absence of comment, such as Syrio and Greywind and The Ned all enjoying a happy retirement together off the page, but that doesn't create a balanced situation in which Syrio being dead is as likely as Syrio being alive. Belief in Syrio being alive is an exercise in pure faith.

[mormont]

Skepticism needs evidence. Did you assume that Arya was dead when the Hound hit her in the head with the axe? It's very likely that I will die if someone hit me in the head with an axe - even the blunt side - from horseback. Yet without evidence, there is no certainty.

Fortunately, the author provided us with evidence for this question in the very next Arya chapter.

However, even without said evidence, there was good reason to be sceptical that Arya was dead. For one thing, she is an important, even central, character: for another, her story arc was clearly incomplete: for a third thing, the Hound had no well-founded reason to kill her. None of these things apply in Syrio's case. He's a clearly incidental character, whose role in the story had been served, facing a man with good reason to kill him.

And, crucially, no further word of his fate has been forthcoming in the four following books: nor have we even had a question about it raised. Over a decade and a half later, Syrio's fate has had less attention that Benjen Stark's, or even Tyrek Lannister's. These characters also appear to be dead, but the author takes the time to occasionally remind us that we don't know for certain what happened to them. If he intended Syrio's fate to be a mystery, he's had ample opportunity to do the same for him.

[corbon]

Yes, there is.

Thank you. Thats two of you who have proved my point in very short time.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

Thank you. Thats two of you who have proved my point in very short time.

Are you stupid? That was a post to signify "In conclusion.."

Sorry my English is better than yours and you don't understand implications.

[kiasyd]

Lummel / Mormont,

I understand completely... All I'm saying is that you guys chose Syrio being dead, as much as other readers chose him being alive.

I myself understand him as being alive and dead at the same time in the absence of confirmation, and thus, the analogy to Schroedinger's Cat.

[Kahl Trollo]

He's alive, last seen in the belly of the sarlacc, where he's finding a new definition of pain and suffering as he is slowly digested over a thousand years.