Is Syrio Forel really dead?

[Lord Reaver]

We don't know the end result with Syrio, so it would be circular logic to argue that he proved it one way or the other.

We do know the end result of the 5 vs 1 with Syrio, they're all down and bleeding. Trant isn't a part of that fight at all, however, which means that your assessment that the odds are better for Syrio at that point depends on whether you think the 5 goons are more or less of a threat than Trant by himself.

There's no doubt in my mind that Syrio was a superior swordsman to Trant, though I'm not sure he would have been better than any of the 5 mentioned above. That's my point, and nothing you've said thus far has refuted it.

Unsurprising, since I haven't been trying to refute that Syrio is a superior swordsman to Trant. What I have been arguing is that he's good enough to kill an unarmed, unarmored Syrio. There is a difference.

He's clearly Cersei's man at the time in question, as attested to by Tyrion when he arrives in King's Landing. How he got there we don't know, but I'm on as equally firm footing speculating on a Cersei whisper in Robert's ear as you are with a purely Robert origin.

We are, but since you're the one making the claims, the onus of providing evidence falls on you. You're claiming Trant was chosen for political reasons, Then you need to provide evidence to back up that claim. I'm merely providing reasonable doubt to your claims.

I'm not the one that gave Syrio the ability to incapacitate four armed guards (who have advantages in numbers, equipment, and formation) simultaneously. I'm just saying that the skills that Syrio displays in evading their simultaneous attacks are sufficient to allow him to re-arm in the face of Trant's attack. Do you deny this?

Yes I deny that. If he could have re-armed, why didn't he ? We clearly see him not attempting this, rather he chooses to attack Trant with what he must know is a completely ineffectual weapon. Why on earth would he do that if he could simply have re-armed himself with something more appropriate ? The only answer is that re-arming was not an option Syrio could take before Trant closed on him, much less with him within striking distance as is the case when Arya leaves.

The guards certainly did not take advantage of their numerical superiority, nor did they employ any sort of formation or organization. On the contrary, Syrio takes the initative, puts 2 of them down and the other two rush him one at a time like idiots rather than team up. It's classic untrained louts vs. experienced fighter stuff you see in so many movies/books etc. It does have some root in reality though, as an experienced fighter can maneuvre to make up for numerical inferiority.

Facing Trant, Syrio is in a completely different situation. His opponent has focus solely on him, there simply is no way short of a miracle he can bend over and pick up anything from the ground in the time it takes Trant to perform a simple attack that would kill or incapacitate.

Now, why do you think Syrio would have been unable to duplicate the feat? Was Bronn better than Syrio? Was Trant better than Vardis? Remember Tyrion uses Bronn's victory over Vardis to intimidate Ser Mandon Moore, by all accounts a more dangerous fighter than Trant. Is there some other logical reason for denying that Syrio could duplicate the feat, or are you just quibbling to try and obscure the precedent?

Bronn was armed and armored, though lighter than Ser Vardis. Syrio has a stick, and at the end of what we see, half of that. Having a weapon in a swordfight is quite important. Trying to equate the two situations only reveals ignorance (willful or otherwise) of the issue. The fight between Bronn and Vardis sets no precedent for Syrio's situation what so ever.

I'm beginning to think that the entire board is composed of SCA members or else employed by Medieval Times.

I assure you I am neither of those. I have however been doing medieval reenactment and various WMA/manual fighting for the past 10 or so years.

I was knocked unconscious by a similar equipped opponent, one without a lever arm/force multiplier such as a sword.

Yes, but then you didn't have a sword with which you might have simply incapacitated your attacker before he ever got close enough to do anything to you, did you ? Trant does.

No doubt a metal helm offers more protection against a blade, but the padding in a state-of-the-art modern football helmet offers more protection against concussion than padded leather.

The padding inside a helmet was not usually leather, but rather sewn from several layers of linen cloth, some times with stuffing such as horsehair of raw cotton. While modern materials have the benefit of being lighter and easier to mass produce, I see little reason to assume they are vastly superior at absorbing force.

I'm not arguing that Trant's skull would have shattered, I'm arguing that the concussive force from such a blow could have knocked him out, the same way that state of the art armor in our Humvees in Iraq couldn't prevent our troops from suffering brain damage.

The point of having the padding is precisely to prevent just such a result. To be sure, that doesn't mean it's impossible to direct a blow with sufficient force to knock someone wearing this sort of armor out, but I really don't see how Syrio could manage to do it with half a wooden training sword. Also, I fail to see how humvees and brain damage relates to the issue at all. The forces at play in an attack on an armored vehicle is vastly different than what you could face in this scenario.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

Syrio Forell is a Faceless Man, after knocking the Lannister men senseless, he killed Ser Meryn Trant and took his place.

It is known.

[the Hemp Knight]

When Jaqen changes his face into that of the Alchemist he very specifically tells Arya "Jaqen H'gar is dead."

So, I would believe Syrio could be "dead" as well. Admittedly I want Syrio to be jaqen. Could he not just as easily have somehow ended up captured and thrown in a black cell to rot? Or was expected to die of his injuries and through some faceless man voodoo "died" and changed his face?

[FittleLinger]

When Jaqen changes his face into that of the Alchemist he very specifically tells Arya "Jaqen H'gar is dead."

So, I would believe Syrio could be "dead" as well. Admittedly I want Syrio to be jaqen. Could he not just as easily have somehow ended up captured and thrown in a black cell to rot? Or was expected to die of his injuries and through some faceless man voodoo "died" and changed his face?

No, sorry. Jaqen was already in the cells. And those beheaded a Septa - he beat them with a stick and let Arya escape. It doesn't make sense for them to let him live. He is dead. He was a great character indeed. He did his job fearlessly, with nerve, being badass and skillful and thoughtful at the same time. May he rest in peace.

[Whitering]

No, sorry. Jaqen was already in the cells. And those beheaded a Septa - he beat them with a stick and let Arya escape. It doesn't make sense for them to let him live. He is dead. He was a great character indeed. He did his job fearlessly, with nerve, being badass and skillful and thoughtful at the same time. May he rest in peace.

Well, to my mind one of the sticking points is that Jaqen scared Rorge and Biter very badly somehow. How? He must have changed his face in a way that they noticed. I doubt those two super hardened crazy fuckers would have just believed him if he said he was a Faceless Man, but if he changed his face? Well, they are from Essos and probably have the same healthy respect for Faceless Men as anyone else over there. If "he" turned into Jaqen in front of them, who was he before? How else could he have scared them so badly? For it to just be some random dude we had never seen before would seem sloppy. That's my one question I would like answered before I am totally ready to let this issue go.

[FittleLinger]

Well, to my mind one of the sticking points is that Jaqen scared Rorge and Biter very badly somehow. How? He must have changed his face in a way that they noticed. I doubt those two super hardened crazy fuckers would have just believed him if he said he was a Faceless Man, but if he changed his face? Well, they are from Essos and probably have the same healthy respect for Faceless Men as anyone else over there. If "he" turned into Jaqen in front of them, who was he before? How else could he have scared them so badly? For it to just be some random dude we had never seen before would seem sloppy. That's my one question I would like answered before I am totally ready to let this issue go.

They weren't scared as hell, they seemed somewhat scared. I agree this is curious and worthy of questioning, but two things:

1. Jaqen is an FM. After all, that's what he is. They might have suspected this one way or the other, but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with Syrio.

2. There is a major problem of changing his face while being kept, because did the gaolers not realize one man is entering and another one is leaving the cells? Also, where is the body of the supposed man the FM killed? Does he have a face that is waiting for him on hold from before? Even if that's the case, still doesn't answer the first question from point 2.

[Whitering]

They weren't scared as hell, they seemed somewhat scared. I agree this is curious and worthy of questioning, but two things:

1. Jaqen is an FM. After all, that's what he is. They might have suspected this one way or the other, but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with Syrio.

2. There is a major problem of changing his face while being kept, because did the gaolers not realize one man is entering and another one is leaving the cells? Also, where is the body of the supposed man the FM killed? Does he have a face that is waiting for him on hold from before? Even if that's the case, still doesn't answer the first question from point 2.

The head Gaoler is/was Varys. For all that the guy Jaime spoke with claimed to be solely in charge of the Black Cells, I think we know Varys can do whatever he wants down there.

[FittleLinger]

The head Gaoler is/was Varys. For all that the guy Jaime spoke with claimed to be solely in charge of the Black Cells, I think we know Varys can do whatever he wants down there.

No, the head one is Rennifer Longwaters.

Anyway, I have not denied that Jaqen might have changed his face and the other two seen him. How does this relate to Syrio, as we know that there were two people - Jaqen and Syrio, one teaching Arya, and the other in the cells, at the same time?

[Whitering]

Well, Rennifer did not describe the jailed man to Jaime, sorry about the mistake, but the point stands, Varys can do whatever he wants down there. he was in charge of the Black Cells though. Yes 3 men Ned gave to the Night's Watch. There is no real reason for Varys to sub Syrio in for one of them unless he was a Faceless Man. In truth, it does not seem likely that the men down there got to socialize, so when did Jaqen so impress Rorge and Biter? Probably after they were transferred out of the cells and getting ready for transport. I find it beyond reason that Varys wouldn't know he had a Faceless Man down there but maybe I am giving Varys too much credit.

So, I guess my point is that Varys could have subbed someone down there at any time.

[anon76returns]

We do know the end result of the 5 vs 1 with Syrio, they're all down and bleeding. Trant isn't a part of that fight at all, however, which means that your assessment that the odds are better for Syrio at that point depends on whether you think the 5 goons are more or less of a threat than Trant by himself.

It seems that we're in agreement on this then, though I think my original point was that 5 goons with Trant as backup is still worse than just Trant.

Unsurprising, since I haven't been trying to refute that Syrio is a superior swordsman to Trant. What I have been arguing is that he's good enough to kill an unarmed, unarmored Syrio. There is a difference.

Sure, and I'd agree that if Syrio remains unarmored he's toast. It seems the difference is whether he was able to pick up a sword before Trant killed him.

We are, but since you're the one making the claims, the onus of providing evidence falls on you. You're claiming Trant was chosen for political reasons, Then you need to provide evidence to back up that claim. I'm merely providing reasonable doubt to your claims.

But I'm the one trying to establish reasonable doubt (that Syrio is definitely dead, as opposed to likely dead or possibly dead). And I believe I could flip the onus- we have proof that he is Cersei's pet in AL298-299, so it's up to you to show that he wasn't Cersei's pet when he was selected as Kingsguard (wether after Rob's Rebellion, Greyjoy Rebellion, or some other point during Robert's reign).

In any case, this seems to be a fairly ancillary point, especially as we both agree that Syrio was the superior swordsman, at least with Bravosi blade vs. longsword.

Yes I deny that. If he could have re-armed, why didn't he ? We clearly see him not attempting this, rather he chooses to attack Trant with what he must know is a completely ineffectual weapon. Why on earth would he do that if he could simply have re-armed himself with something more appropriate ? The only answer is that re-arming was not an option Syrio could take before Trant closed on him, much less with him within striking distance as is the case when Arya leaves.

He did attack Trant's temple, so perhaps he thought he could damage (for instance) the visor of Trant's helmet to the point that a vulnerability would open up, or so that Trant's vision became more obscured. Certainly his easiest opportunity to pick up a longsword would be right after disabling the last Lannister guard, as up to that point Trant hadn't even drawn and there's no impression that his advance on Syrio is rushed. Why didn't he? I don't know- perhaps he preferred the balance of the wooden sword.

The guards certainly did not take advantage of their numerical superiority, nor did they employ any sort of formation or organization. On the contrary, Syrio takes the initative, puts 2 of them down and the other two rush him one at a time like idiots rather than team up. It's classic untrained louts vs. experienced fighter stuff you see in so many movies/books etc. It does have some root in reality though, as an experienced fighter can maneuvre to make up for numerical inferiority.

They do manage to surround him from three sides, and advance simultaneously, but I agree that is the extent of their use of their advantages. Syrio, on the other hand, has a large enough quickness advantage ('')that he is able to seize the initiative & knock out their right flank before they could even react.

Facing Trant, Syrio is in a completely different situation. His opponent has focus solely on him, there simply is no way short of a miracle he can bend over and pick up anything from the ground in the time it takes Trant to perform a simple attack that would kill or incapacitate.

All 5 men had their sole focus on him, and he managed to avoid getting struck long enough to defeat them all. Vardis Egon had his entire attention on Bronn, yet at one time he completely lost Bronn from his field of vision, and only a shout of 'behind you' from the peanut gallery kept it from being an even shorter fight. As long as Syrio could stay alive, he had a chance for Meryn to slip up and give him an opportunity to retrieve a real sword.

Bronn was armed and armored, though lighter than Ser Vardis. Syrio has a stick, and at the end of what we see, half of that. Having a weapon in a swordfight is quite important. Trying to equate the two situations only reveals ignorance (willful or otherwise) of the issue. The fight between Bronn and Vardis sets no precedent for Syrio's situation what so ever.

Bronn's armor never comes into play in the fight with Vardis. Vardis was unable to strike him a single time with his sword during the entire duel. Bronn relied on parrying and dodging, and from the description Syrio is even faster at dodging than Bronn ("blindingly fast" and "never seen a man move as fast" vs. "quicker" than Vardis and "moved like a panther"), and he's quite adept at parrying, having already used his wooden sword to parry one blow from the Lannister Guardsmen as well as 3 from Trant (not counting the fourth blow that shortened his sword). He still has half a wooden sword to parry with, and is perfectly capable of dodging, just as Bronn did for the majority of his duel.

[jon crow]

not everyone can be a faceless man. syrio is too proud of his time as the first sword of braavos. and i find it hard to believe a servant of the house of black and white would keep one face for that long. it's completely counter to their philosophy. he was a bravo, not an assassin. too proud of his identity. he is not 'no one.' he is syrio forel.

he's dead. people do die in these books, and more often than not they stay that way.

[Greatwing]

not everyone can be a faceless man. syrio is too proud of his time as the first sword of braavos. and i find it hard to believe a servant of the house of black and white would keep one face for that long. it's completely counter to their philosophy. he was a bravo, not an assassin. too proud of his identity. he is not 'no one.' he is syrio forel.

he's dead. people do die in these books, and more often than not they stay that way.

Of course he was "too proud" if he was a faceless man than it is key in the philosophy to be the character they set out to be exactly. If he was a FM acting as the first sword then it would make sense for him to be proud. I'd also disagree on how long the face was kept, Arya was only in training and she was cat for quite a long time, if a FM had a target then he would wear that face for as long as it took.

[IRON BANK]

Well yes, the same way as I forgot how a KG and some goldcloaks with orders to capture Starks and kill everyone else had Syrio unarmed, unarmored and cornered and somehow let him live.

ETA: What I'm saying is that very often Martin leaves things unsaid. This doesn't mean Syrio is alive, someone else murdered Robb, or the Alchemist is not Jaqen.

Agree a good writer leaves some things open to interpretation. Just because he doesn't spell it out for you word for word doesn't mean it didn't happen. Lets not cheapen Syrio by claiming he didn't give his life For Arya SO she could get away. Think of all the other characters that were cheapened this way for some gimmick of Fandom.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Rorge and Biter weren't terrified of Jaqen to the point they avoided him. To the contrary; they were quite buddy-buddy with him. They did however seem to know that he was a dangerous man. I'm guessing something happened in the cells, or perhaps even in the cage, where the two tried to stand over Jaqen and came off second and third best. I don't think there's anything more to it than that.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

I hope Syrio isn't dead.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

Just wanted to point something out that Jaqen H'ghar said when Arya named him as the the third name and Arya promises to unsay Jaqen's name if he help rescue the northern prisoners.

"The hungry gods will feast on blood tonight, if a man would do this thing." Jaqen said. "Sweet girl, kind and gentle. Unsay one name and say another and cast this mad dream aside."

"I won't."

"Just so." He seemed resigned. "The thing will be done, but a girl must obey. A man has no time for talk."

I am re-reading ACoK now, which is how I noticed it. "Just so." A favourite saying of Syrio's?

[mormont]

A common saying amongst people from the Free Cities.

[DarkSnow]

Id like Syrio to be Jaqen but i doubt that is the fact. If so Its just as likely as the Boar that killed Robert was a faceless man.

[Woftis]

Id like Syrio to be Jaqen but i doubt that is the fact. If so Its just as likely as the Boar that killed Robert was a faceless man.

I'd hate it. I loved him as a character but his role is done, he's sent Arya on her journey and the rest is up to her.

As previous posters mentioned, it wouldn't add to the story in any way, it would only serve to confuse things. Not to mention that one of the things that made Syrio so cool was dying to protect Arya.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

Well, since they ate the boar on Robert's orders, I hope he wasn't a Faceless Man.

But isn't human flesh supposed to taste like pork?

Oh well.