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BananaSpice

[Book Spoilers] Theon!

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Whatever the rules are, I doubt she's reaching anywhere close to the limit. The producers have truncated her storyline for budget reasons, not because they would break the law by showing her more.

Either way, one Theon scene would have been enough. He could have just made a one episode cameo like Sallador Saan. Showing his fruitless/pointless storyline throughout the season is only going to be silly because it's an original story and we should be wary of original storylines after Daenery's arc last season.

I mean really, how many episodes showing Theon being tortured do we need?

The story is NOT original ... it's taken directly from ADWD (taking liberties like the show always does, I'm sure) ... it's not like they just "made up" a story for Theon ... they are just showing the audience AS IT HAPPENS as opposed to flashing back to it through memories later (b/c flashbacks don't work as well with visual medium). Also, AFFC and ADWD happen at the same time ... so some of his parts from ADWD can happen towards the end of season 4. I don't see a problem AT ALL with what they are doing. I think it's going to be great.

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@jenthehen @I blame mance:

I see that you understand Theon. Problem is that many book readers still read it as a Harry Potter book, you have good guys and bad guys. That's not the case in this world. There are many grey characters, that did things because of some reason. The reason for Theon is: He wants to belong. Many people have that feeling sometimes, they must try to feel that feeling every second of the day. Robbs reason is: Vengeance since when is vengeance a good reason? He started with his mother (who captured Tyrion) a war. Where many people died. I understand his motives he wants the Lannisters to pay for the crimes they committed (funny that one crime they didn't commit) but did they side with Stannis to put him on the throne. Because that would have been the right chose if you didn't want a lannister on the throne. Or even send someone to get Danereys. but is vengeance really a better motive for doing something wrong than belonging somewhere? The reason for Stannis faults is: He doesn't want to be king, but he thinks that he must be king because of 2 reasons, he is robert's heir and (for this season) he wants to defeat the WW that are going to threaten westeros and he thinks he is Azor Ahai.

Many people make Robb a saint because he is a Stark and the Starks are the first family we are introduced too. If they were introduced to the Lannisters first, they would have been Lannisters fans.

But people need their facts straight about Theon and why he do things.

- He didn't kill those 2 children.

- He killed only because he needed to, the murders the rapes.

- he took over Winterfel (his only true crime that's on his hands). but funny thing is that that's not the reason why people hate him.

- He betrayed his captor.

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To me, that's tragic. Also, in the book he is seriously about to take the black and is excited about it - i.e. he wants to confess his crimes and have them wiped away and to bring glory to himself in a noble way ... but then just before he decides to do so fully, Ramsay comes and betrays the northmen and essentially ruins everything, b/c Theon thinks he's saved ... but he is so, so, so wrong.

I found one excerpt sort of telling, the Greyjoy mantra: We don't sow, we don't reap, we don't . . . we take what is ours. In other words they are all criminals, fighting for the throne. Theon renewed his oath in waters of Pyke. He made it his goal to be the conqueror. In the pursuit of that goal, he burned two kids.

if you want to say he is tragic in the sense that he is unequal to the task of good leadership, so be it. But not in my mind. He is a monster of his own accord.

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I found one excerpt sort of telling, the Greyjoy mantra: We don't sow, we don't reap, we don't . . . we take what is ours. In other words they are all criminals, fighting for the throne. Theon renewed his oath in waters of Pyke. He made it his goal to be the conqueror. In the pursuit of that goal, he burned two kids.

if you want to say he is tragic in the sense that he is unequal to the task of good leadership, so be it. But not in my mind. He is a monster of his own accord.

when did he do that? You hate him for a crime he didn't commit.

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These scenes are the ones I have been waiting for. The 'boy' will be interesting.

So far they have done well. Alfie Allen is good as Theon

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@jenthehen @I blame mance:

I see that you understand Theon. Problem is that many book readers still read it as a Harry Potter book, you have good guys and bad guys. That's not the case in this world. There are many grey characters, that did things because of some reason. The reason for Theon is: He wants to belong. Many people have that feeling sometimes, they must try to feel that feeling every second of the day. Robbs reason is: Vengeance since when is vengeance a good reason? He started with his mother (who captured Tyrion) a war. Where many people died. I understand his motives he wants the Lannisters to pay for the crimes they committed (funny that one crime they didn't commit) but did they side with Stannis to put him on the throne. Because that would have been the right chose if you didn't want a lannister on the throne. Or even send someone to get Danereys. but is vengeance really a better motive for doing something wrong than belonging somewhere? The reason for Stannis faults is: He doesn't want to be king, but he thinks that he must be king because of 2 reasons, he is robert's heir and (for this season) he wants to defeat the WW that are going to threaten westeros and he thinks he is Azor Ahai.

Many people make Robb a saint because he is a Stark and the Starks are the first family we are introduced too. If they were introduced to the Lannisters first, they would have been Lannisters fans.

But people need their facts straight about Theon and why he do things.

- He didn't kill those 2 children.

- He killed only because he needed to, the murders the rapes.

- he took over Winterfel (his only true crime that's on his hands). but funny thing is that that's not the reason why people hate him.

- He betrayed his captor.

*claps* ... I like the "wanting to belong" v. "vengeance" argument. I mean, I don't want to make Theon sound like he is a saint, b/c he's not, but I'm shocked and appalled at how many people seem to really just HATE him. I'm like ... were they watching/reading the same thing I was???

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Not really sure how I feel about this, I'm kind of neutral I guess - Thoen as a character has never really provoked much interest in me. I always found Jaime Lannister to be far more fascinating and better written as far as 'tragic' figures go.

That being said, Alfie Allen's acting has really grown on me and I do think Theon's arc was a higlight of S2 - the show really made the character come alive.

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when did he do that? You hate him for a crime he didn't commit.

To be fair, I think in both book and show he was certainly involved in the murder of the two children. In the book he was pressured by Ramsay to do so (Theon would never have come up with that idea himself, tbh). In the show, he did come up with the idea himself, but he seems to feel guilty (as evidenced by him trying to pay the farmer/miller and then seeming a bit upset when he realizes that his men killed the farmer/miller, too). In the book he has a lot of regret about killing the kids ... he has a nightmare about it, in fact.

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It is amazing that people can actually feel this way. Robb is a flawed character but being a traitor is factually not one of his flaws.

Well I guess letting himself be called "King in the north" could kinda be called treason to his king, Stannis, no?

Also, I have to say I'm surprised how rarely Ned gets any Flak. People say "He was always trying to do good", to which I say NO. He's always trying to do the honorable thing, but that's by far not always the same as the right thing. E.g. letting a War with thousands of innocents killed because siding with Renly or LF for the throne wouldn't be "honorable".

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Well I guess letting himself be called "King in the north" could kinda be called treason to his king, Stannis, no?

Also, I have to say I'm surprised how rarely Ned gets any Flak. People say "He was always trying to do good", to which I say NO. He's always trying to do the honorable thing, but that's by far not always the same as the right thing. E.g. letting a War with thousands of innocents killed because siding with Renly or LF for the throne wouldn't be "honorable".

Not to mention that Ned would absolutely have killed Theon had Balon Greyjoy rebelled at any point after he took Theon as a "ward." Even when he was 10 years old.

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@jenthehen @I blame mance:

I see that you understand Theon. Problem is that many book readers still read it as a Harry Potter book, you have good guys and bad guys. That's not the case in this world. There are many grey characters, that did things because of some reason. The reason for Theon is: He wants to belong. Many people have that feeling sometimes, they must try to feel that feeling every second of the day. Robbs reason is: Vengeance since when is vengeance a good reason? He started with his mother (who captured Tyrion) a war. Where many people died. I understand his motives he wants the Lannisters to pay for the crimes they committed (funny that one crime they didn't commit) but did they side with Stannis to put him on the throne. Because that would have been the right chose if you didn't want a lannister on the throne. Or even send someone to get Danereys. but is vengeance really a better motive for doing something wrong than belonging somewhere? The reason for Stannis faults is: He doesn't want to be king, but he thinks that he must be king because of 2 reasons, he is robert's heir and (for this season) he wants to defeat the WW that are going to threaten westeros and he thinks he is Azor Ahai.

Many people make Robb a saint because he is a Stark and the Starks are the first family we are introduced too. If they were introduced to the Lannisters first, they would have been Lannisters fans.

But people need their facts straight about Theon and why he do things.

- He didn't kill those 2 children.

- He killed only because he needed to, the murders the rapes.

- he took over Winterfel (his only true crime that's on his hands). but funny thing is that that's not the reason why people hate him.

- He betrayed his captor.

your right he killed 2 children and their mother I recall

alright tell me I'm wrong. Tell me Ramsay/Clef Jaw talked him into it, that he had no choice. I love people defending children killers, their excuses are always quite fun to here

simply put, getting bad advice from someone is not an excuse for killing children, almost nothing is really

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Well I guess letting himself be called "King in the north" could kinda be called treason to his king, Stannis, no?

Also, I have to say I'm surprised how rarely Ned gets any Flak. People say "He was always trying to do good", to which I say NO. He's always trying to do the honorable thing, but that's by far not always the same as the right thing. E.g. letting a War with thousands of innocents killed because siding with Renly or LF for the throne wouldn't be "honorable".

He WAS always trying to do good. It's just that his idea of what that meant was too unflinching.

This traitor thing is out of hand. You can make argument for just about everyone being a traitor, even Joffrey. You can even equivocate Roose because after all he was following a traitor in Robb anyway. Everyone is a traitor, no one is a traitor. Back to square one

But I will add that as Lord of Winterfell, Robb swore no oath to a king. Maybe a formality, but he never said the words or bent the knee

At what point do we look at right and wrong before the law, especially in a world where the law is not exactly iron clad?

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your right he killed 2 children and their mother I recall

alright tell me I'm wrong. Tell me Ramsay talk him into it, that he had no choice. I love people defending children killers, their excuses are always quite fun to here

simply put, getting bad advice from someone is not an excuse for killing children, almost nothing is really

Nobody is saying it's ok to kill children. That was horrible. It's supposed to be horrible. However, in light of the world in ASOIF/Game of Thrones and how everyone behaves and how they do things (i.e. taking hostages like Theon that they would kill if their parents rebel, etc.) ... it's not THE WORST POSSIBLE THING. It's like ... people think Theon is the worst character ever b/c he had two children killed. Yes, it was selfish and horrible, but that one act doesn't make him deserving of torture, and he is still sympathetic in light of how his life has been (not that he necessarily has "suffered" like he does later ... but more just the psychology of never belonging, his situation as a hostage, etc.)

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Nobody is saying it's ok to kill children. That was horrible. It's supposed to be horrible. However, in light of the world in ASOIF/Game of Thrones and how everyone behaves and how they do things (i.e. taking hostages like Theon that they would kill if their parents rebel, etc.) ... it's not THE WORST POSSIBLE THING. It's like ... people think Theon is the worst character ever b/c he had two children killed. Yes, it was selfish and horrible, but that one act doesn't make him deserving of torture, and he is still sympathetic in light of how his life has been (not that he necessarily has "suffered" like he does later ... but more just the psychology of never belonging, his situation as a hostage, etc.)

the worst crime no, but still horrible never the less

it's probably the only thing keeping me from ever feeling sorry for Theon. I can not pity someone who did such a horrible crime. I like Theon as a character, but I hate his actions; therefore I can never feel sorry for him when something bad happens. I'm the same way with Tywin, Victarion and a few other characters

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*claps* ... I like the "wanting to belong" v. "vengeance" argument. I mean, I don't want to make Theon sound like he is a saint, b/c he's not, but I'm shocked and appalled at how many people seem to really just HATE him. I'm like ... were they watching/reading the same thing I was???

True, I'm not finding him a saint. But who is in the books? Only thing that I hate that many people judge him without even trying to understand why he did that. It's funny that 3 characters GRRM named that are highly misunderstood by many are Theon, Jaime and Mellisandre.

To be fair, I think in both book and show he was certainly involved in the murder of the two children. In the book he was pressured by Ramsay to do so (Theon would never have come up with that idea himself, tbh). In the show, he did come up with the idea himself, but he seems to feel guilty (as evidenced by him trying to pay the farmer/miller and then seeming a bit upset when he realizes that his men killed the farmer/miller, too). In the book he has a lot of regret about killing the kids ... he has a nightmare about it, in fact.

True, but didn't ramsey not killing the boys himself and Theon only gave a nod ore something like that?

and about the show, I had the feeling Dagmer killed the boys in the show.

Well I guess letting himself be called "King in the north" could kinda be called treason to his king, Stannis, no?

Also, I have to say I'm surprised how rarely Ned gets any Flak. People say "He was always trying to do good", to which I say NO. He's always trying to do the honorable thing, but that's by far not always the same as the right thing. E.g. letting a War with thousands of innocents killed because siding with Renly or LF for the throne wouldn't be "honorable".

True, if he did that, there wouldn't be a war. And he did rebelled against the Mad King. Even not telling Robert about Cercei's treason even got robert and himself killed.

your right he killed 2 children and their mother I recall

alright tell me I'm wrong. Tell me Ramsay/Clef Jaw talked him into it, that he had no choice. I love people defending children killers, their excuses are always quite fun to here

simply put, getting bad advice from someone is not an excuse for killing children, almost nothing is really

And you like Robb? You like Robert? You like Ned?

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And you like Robb? You like Robert? You like Ned?

I hated all 3 characters. Ned was probably my favorite of the group and Robert was funny at times, but it doesn't excuse all 3 characters from being idiots, lol

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Nobody is saying it's ok to kill children. That was horrible. It's supposed to be horrible. However, in light of the world in ASOIF/Game of Thrones and how everyone behaves and how they do things (i.e. taking hostages like Theon that they would kill if their parents rebel, etc.) ... it's not THE WORST POSSIBLE THING. It's like ... people think Theon is the worst character ever b/c he had two children killed. Yes, it was selfish and horrible, but that one act doesn't make him deserving of torture, and he is still sympathetic in light of how his life has been (not that he necessarily has "suffered" like he does later ... but more just the psychology of never belonging, his situation as a hostage, etc.)

I agree. Imo, the torture is over the top. I have very little interest in seeing anymore of it

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He WAS always trying to do good. It's just that his idea of what that meant was too unflinching.

This traitor thing is out of hand. You can make argument for just about everyone being a traitor, even Joffrey. You can even equivocate Roose because after all he was following a traitor in Robb anyway. Everyone is a traitor, no one is a traitor. Back to square one

But I will add that as Lord of Winterfell, Robb swore no oath to a king. Maybe a formality, but he never said the words or bent the knee

Bouncing off the "swearing fealty" thing ... I'm pretty sure Theon never actually bends the knee to Robb in the book, or am I wrong? Like, I'm pretty sure Robb doesn't make him do that, b/c the original plan was for Balon to help Robb and then be elevated to a king again, and Theon would be the heir and eventually King of the Iron Islands ... so it wouldn't do for him to be bannerman to the King in the North, right?

Anyway ... I know that's different in the show, and yes, Theon does betray Robb. He does turn his cloak ... but it was really only after turning it agains his father first, right? I mean, not everyone can be strong all the time, and a lot of people would give in to their family if humiliated into it. Was he supposed to leave the Iron Islands and go back to Robb? To turn his back on his family who he DID love and his house who he had a lot of pride in? Would they have let him go? Would Robb have been encouraged to kill him to stop Balon's rebellion? I mean ... there is A LOT at play here. It's not always simply a decision of "do the right thing, or the wrong thing" ... what's tragic is Theon is always thinking he's doing the right thing, and then quickly realizing he's made some horrible mistake or things didn't go the great way he planned.

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I hated all 3 characters. Ned was probably my favorite of the group and Robert was funny at times, but it doesn't excuse all 3 characters from being idiots, lol

Good because all 3 are guilty of child murder. Ned at the iron islanders (Theon's brothers were still underage) and probably some of the Nights watch who were underage. Robert ordered the killing of Elia's kids. And robb even killed many innocent people in his war, and probably some kids too.

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Good because all 3 are guilty of child murder. Ned at the iron islanders (Theon's brothers were still underage) and probably some of the Nights watch who were underage. Robert ordered the killing of Elia's kids. And robb even killed many innocent people in his war, and probably some kids too.

Robert also wanted Dany and her unborn child killed.

A big theme of the books is also the suffering of common people while the lords/royalty are playing their "Game of Thrones" ... no one is 100% innocent. Even Dany's dragons kill innocent people (eating a child, for example).

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