Theories on who the Laughing Tree Night is?

[Balerion06]

Still not convinced that a 16 year old girl could competently unhorse three trained knights.

Unless the story is meant to be metaphorical: Lyanna somehow (secretly) humiliated the three knights for bullying Howland Reed (in something other than unbelievable jousting), and when Aerys sent Rhaegar to find out who had dishonoured three loyal vassals, he found Lyanna laughing in a (weirwood) tree.

[The guy from the Vale]

Still not convinced that a 16 year old girl could competently unhorse three trained knights.

Unless the story is meant to be metaphorical: Lyanna somehow (secretly) humiliated the three knights for bullying Howland Reed (in something other than unbelievable jousting), and when Aerys sent Rhaegar to find out who had dishonoured three loyal vassals, he found Lyanna laughing in a (weirwood) tree.

Why could Loras unhorse the much stronger Gregor Clegane, then?

ETA: Loras is 16 at that time, himself.

[OldWays]

Still not convinced that a 16 year old girl could competently unhorse three trained knights.

Unless the story is meant to be metaphorical: Lyanna somehow (secretly) humiliated the three knights for bullying Howland Reed (in something other than unbelievable jousting), and when Aerys sent Rhaegar to find out who had dishonoured three loyal vassals, he found Lyanna laughing in a (weirwood) tree.

Lyanna Stark wasn't some untrained newbie either; she was a natural rider and could best her brothers (or at least Benjen) in fights.

[Nictarion]

Lyanna Stark.

I agree.

[Balerion06]

Why could Loras unhorse the much stronger Gregor Clegane, then?

ETA: Loras is 16 at that time, himself.

Because Loras cheated.

Unless you're telling me Lyanna also found a mare in heat at Harrenhall. Which would be quite the story.

Jojen: Oh, and did I mention the Knight of the Laughing Tree first secretly snuck around every stall in the stables checking out how horny each horse was? Because he totally did that. Can't believe I forgot the most important part.

[Direwolfsigil]

Still not convinced that a 16 year old girl could competently unhorse three trained knights.

Unless the story is meant to be metaphorical: Lyanna somehow (secretly) humiliated the three knights for bullying Howland Reed (in something other than unbelievable jousting), and when Aerys sent Rhaegar to find out who had dishonoured three loyal vassals, he found Lyanna laughing in a (weirwood) tree.

Could you see a 16 year Arya doing it? I could.

based on comparisons in the book, it shouldnt be difficult to parallel them.

[corbon]

Still not convinced that a 16 year old girl could competently unhorse three trained knights.

You probably don't believe in the dead walking either. And fair enough too.

But its GRRMs reality that works here, not yours. He has laid out exhaustive evidence that in his world she could, and backed it up with other examples from that world - "lady Lance" (12 yo old girl) and 10 yr old Barristan Selmy, among others.

Its something well past illogical to persist on this point.

[Balerion06]

You probably don't believe in the dead walking either. And fair enough too.

But its GRRMs reality that works here, not yours. He has laid out exhaustive evidence that in his world she could, and backed it up with other examples from that world - "lady Lance" (12 yo old girl) and 10 yr old Barristan Selmy, among others.

Its something well past illogical to persist on this point.

Nothing in Arianne's chapter suggests Ellia Sand is a competent jouster. The only person who believes so is herself.

Barristan completely bombed the tilt at 10. He was knighted for valour, not competence.

[corbon]

Nothing in Arianne's chapter suggests Ellia Sand is a competent jouster. The only person who believes so is herself.

Barristan completely bombed the tilt at 10. He was knighted for valour, not competence.

We have no idea whether Elia Sand is any good or not, but she jousts and is known for it. And not known for it as a joke or badly either.

Its patently clear that she does joust well enough, whether officially competing or not and whether she wins or not.

Did 10yr old Barristan bomb? He was laughed at, and defeated by a Prince, but there is no evidence he bombed. He still jousted, and that was 10. An average athletic sixteen year old girl is much bigger and stronger than even athletic 10 year old boys.

And by the time he was 16 he was able to unhorse the LC of the KG. And Loras was winning tourneys at the same age, despite being slight.

There is no merit in your objections.

[Balerion06]

We have no idea whether Elia Sand is any good or not, but she jousts and is known for it. And not known for it as a joke or badly either.

Its patently clear that she does joust well enough, whether officially competing or not and whether she wins or not.

Did 10yr old Barristan bomb? He was laughed at, and defeated by a Prince, but there is no evidence he bombed. He still jousted, and that was 10. An average athletic sixteen year old girl is much bigger and stronger than even athletic 10 year old boys.

And by the time he was 16 he was able to unhorse the LC of the KG. And Loras was winning tourneys at the same age, despite being slight.

There is no merit in your objections.

Either Barristan or someone else points out that he made a complete fool of himself that day, barely being able to sit his horse. Again, he was knighted for determination and valour, not competence.

And there is as little evidence for Elia Sand jousting well as there is badly, i.e., none.

Jousting requires musculature, which noble males train and work for over years. Considering how ugly muscled women are considered in Westerosi society, and the fact that Lyanna was considered a beauty, it`s unlikely she had the necessary body build to joust properly. Add to this Rickard`s supposed southern ambitions, and it is even more unlikely he would allow his precious little blue rose to engage in activities that would make her appear manly when her marriage was to be used to secure an important alliance.

[Direwolfsigil]

Either Barristan or someone else points out that he made a complete fool of himself that day, barely being able to sit his horse. Again, he was knighted for determination and valour, not competence.

And there is as little evidence for Elia Sand jousting well as there is badly, i.e., none.

Jousting requires musculature, which noble males train and work for over years. Considering how ugly muscled women are considered in Westerosi society, and the fact that Lyanna was considered a beauty, it`s unlikely she had the necessary body build to joust properly. Add to this Rickard`s supposed southern ambitions, and it is even more unlikely he would allow his precious little blue rose to engage in activities that would make her appear manly when her marriage was to be used to secure an important alliance.

Youre overanalyzing it, it says Lyanna and Arya are EXTREMELY similar at a times, lyanna rides, shes wild, shes good with a sword, shes trained by the best master at arms in north. Aryas a badass and shes only 10,

shes adept at swordplay, she rides when she escapes, shes already killed multiple people and outsmarted those much bigger than her,

the evidence is ALL there.

theres certainly more evidence to back up the fact that Lyanna is capable of disarming three trained knights, than evidence against it.

the matter of whether or not she's the KOTLT is actually debatable.

[danm_999]

Still not convinced that a 16 year old girl could competently unhorse three trained knights.

On jousting;

Jousting was three-quarters horsemanship, Jaime had always believed.

Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first.

On Lyanna;

You ride like a northman, milady,” Harwin said when he’d drawn them to a halt. “Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna.

Horses...the boy [Domeric] was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself.

[Balerion06]

Youre overanalyzing it, it says Lyanna and Arya are EXTREMELY similar at a times, lyanna rides, shes wild, shes good with a sword, shes trained by the best master at arms in north. Aryas a badass and shes only 10,

shes adept at swordplay, she rides when she escapes, shes already killed multiple people and outsmarted those much bigger than her,

the evidence is ALL there.

theres certainly more evidence to back up the fact that Lyanna is capable of disarming three trained knights, than evidence against it.

the matter of whether or not she's the KOTLT is actually debatable.

Everybody Arya has killed has been thanks to guile, speed, smarts, reflexes, stealth or agility, not brute strength.

Being able to ride does not mean being able to joust. See our good king Robert.

Her style of swordfighting from Syrio Forel is chosen by Ned because..... wait for it.... it suits the scrawny build of a girl, favouring speed and agility over strength.

And I personally find people put too much emphasis on Ned`s throwaway comment about how Arya (at 10) being like Lyanna. There may be a few similarities, but they could easily grow up to be very different people.

[Balerion06]

On jousting;

...........................

On Lyanna;

....................................

Fair enough. But you still need the minimum upper body strength required to hold and aim a lance, something an untrained sixteen year old girl is going to severely lack.

Maybe Direwolfsigil is right, and I am overanalyzing this. :P

[Direwolfsigil]

Everybody Arya has killed has been thanks to guile, speed, smarts, reflexes, stealth or agility, not brute strength.

Being able to ride does not mean being able to joust. See our good king Robert.

Her style of swordfighting from Syrio Forel is chosen by Ned because..... wait for it.... it suits the scrawny build of a girl, favouring speed and agility over strength.

And I personally find people put too much emphasis on Ned`s throwaway comment about how Arya (at 10) is like Lyanna. There may be a few similarities, but they could easily grow up to be very different people.

Lyanna is dead, the only things we learn about her are based on peoples "throwaway comments,"

theres no book of Lyanna's life, how else would we learn about her personality?

I wouldnt take anything said about her by her family as throwaway.

much like the events we discussed in the other thread, the ONLY way to learn about lyanna is through stories.

[The guy from the Vale]

Fair enough. But you still need the minimum upper body strength required to hold and aim a lance, something an untrained sixteen year old girl is going to severely lack.

Maybe Direwolfsigil is right, and I am overanalyzing this. :P

But we learned in ADWD that Lyanna did train at arms, together with Benjen.

[danm_999]

Fair enough. But you still need the minimum upper body strength required to hold and aim a lance, something an untrained sixteen year old girl is going to severely lack.

I'm guessing Lyanna has the requisite strength and training in arms given the ass kicking she was giving Benjen in Bran's ADWD vision.

[Balerion06]

But we learned in ADWD that Lyanna did train at arms, together with Benjen.

To me, Bran`s vision seemed more like two kids playing at arms than actual training, especially considering that Benjen is said to be quite a bit younger than her (I may be wrong on this).

[The guy from the Vale]

To me, Bran`s vision seemed more like two kids playing at arms than actual training.

She defeated Benjen, who definitely got training in arms at that time already. She also defeated three squires, i.e. fighters in training, as well. She definitely was athletic and strong enough to do all these things. I don't get where your objection is coming from? It's really all in the text.

[Balerion06]

She defeated Benjen, who definitely got training in arms at that time already. She also defeated three squires, i.e. fighters in training, as well. She definitely was athletic and strong enough to do all these things. I don't get where your objection is coming from? It's really all in the text.

Do we get the age of the squires? Like Benjen, little kids with a little training aren`t going to be much of a match for anyone.

I think I might be overdoing this now, haha.

Anyhow, I`m off to bed. It`s been a fun discussion. Good night all.