Jon to climb the Wall with... (Book Spoilers)

[boojam]

We have already seen , in the previews, the Wildling assault group south of the Wall.

At least that's what it looks like to me.

Even a scene of Ygritte using a bow with Jon behind her.

Question is are they going to have the skirmish for Castle Black this season?

Because it seems the big battle for the Wall occurs next season.

Will Rose Leslie only be in two seasons?

I could see D and D having her escape only to die in season four with the battle for the wall....

Never know what D and D will do.

[Stannis the Wight]

I think after Jon escapes the other members of the party will just climb back over the wall, and there will only be one battle. Ygritte would still die, and there being only one battle will save time and money for HBO.

This is the most likely scenario

[I do not sew]

Yeah I don't see how they could have the battle for Castle Black unfortunately, not unless they scaled it waaaay the eff down.

[KARMAgrinder]

While I understand the restraints... I really wanted to see this scene as accurately portrayed from the books as possible.

[boojam]

I think after Jon escapes the other members of the party will just climb back over the wall, and there will only be one battle. Ygritte would still die, and there being only one battle will save time and money for HBO.

I have watched E3 once and won't be able to watch it again till this weekend, seemed Mance's instructions to Tormund are a little ambiguous to me , I can't remember him tell Tormund to actually attack Castle Black, maybe he did.

But you have made a good guess even tho , in the book, it is more of a skirmish than a battle, Tormund will know that Jon has gotten away and now it's going to be a lot harder to take Castle Black.

Even tho it's kind of smallish, D and D have been reluctant to put a lot action sequence like that in a season.

The previews have shown , what looks like, big preparations for the attack on Yunkai, if they elaborate that then they might well feel the season four battle for the wall is enough. Now that battle is elaborated by George in the book and could be expensive , giants and mammoths you know...plus they have get Stanis in there. It's a Blackwater moment.

(That would probably mean the conquest of Meereen will get shorted.)

[victim]

@boojam, Mance told Tormund to attack when he gives the signal -- "the biggest fire the North has ever seen" -- mentioning they've got the Wall to protect them but it only guards one side.

[six]

I'm dreading this storyline, because compared to the books it's a bit all over the place.

Will Rose Leslie only be in two seasons?

I could see D and D having her escape only to die in season four with the battle for the wall....

Never know what D and D will do.

She should be only in one season- this one, if you ask me. I keep seeing people suggesting they'll combine her with Val (!!!!) or that she'll die next season killed by Stannis' men, but that would ruin Jon's arc completely. Ygritte dying when and in the way she does, it's a catalyst in what makes Jon the Jon he ends up being after everything happened.

As or the battle at the wall, it's one of my favourite parts as well. But to be totally honest, I'm not overly impressed by how Jon's story has been adapted...

[Septon Meribald]

Of course there's no way of knowing exactly what the show writers have decided to do, but given the current set up I can envision a scenario that I'd be pretty happy seeing. Jon and Tormund climb the Wall, maybe some wildlings fall, maybe they don't, if they do an extra might be given a line that amounts to 'I've climbed the wall a dozen times' making him a stand in for Jarl. South of the wall Jon escapes the wildlings along the lines of the book. Orell dies somewhere along the way leaving Tormund without knowledge of when to attack. He decides to go for a night attack as soon as possible, knowing the Jon will warn the Watch. Battle ensues, Ygritte is slain, Tormund is captured. Mance shows up north of the Wall and the battle plays out about the same as the books. Afterwards Jon convinces Tormund to talk to the captured wildlings and lead them south of the Wall under the supervision of the Watch.

I don't see any reason they couldn't film the Battle of Castle Black. They've scaled down the wildling force so it would amount to about 20 actors and extras trading blows and firing some arrows. There would be no complex duels to choreograph, no expensive pyrotechnics, no large contingent of horse wranglers to support a cavalry scene and no cg or huge group of extras to arrange for crowd shots since the armies are small.

[boojam]

Of course there's no way of knowing exactly what the show writers have decided to do, but given the current set up I can envision a scenario that I'd be pretty happy seeing. Jon and Tormund climb the Wall, maybe some wildlings fall, maybe they don't, if they do an extra might be given a line that amounts to 'I've climbed the wall a dozen times' making him a stand in for Jarl. South of the wall Jon escapes the wildlings along the lines of the book. Orell dies somewhere along the way leaving Tormund without knowledge of when to attack. He decides to go for a night attack as soon as possible, knowing the Jon will warn the Watch. Battle ensues, Ygritte is slain, Tormund is captured. Mance shows up north of the Wall and the battle plays out about the same as the books. Afterwards Jon convinces Tormund to talk to the captured wildlings and lead them south of the Wall under the supervision of the Watch.

I don't see any reason they couldn't film the Battle of Castle Black. They've scaled down the wildling force so it would amount to about 20 actors and extras trading blows and firing some arrows. There would be no complex duels to choreograph, no expensive pyrotechnics, no large contingent of horse wranglers to support a cavalry scene and no cg or huge group of extras to arrange for crowd shots since the armies are small.

I don't have the book with me. Did the assault on the Wall from the North start at the same time as the Wildling strike at Castle Black? Seems there was a delta time?

If they were close together then both could come season 4 , even as late as E4.

Maybe even D and D would make them simultaneous , since it seems the show runners now have the freedom (from HBO, I think?) to do one big thing per season.

So Rose be around , for a while, next season.

[JMJ]

I don't have the book with me. Did the assault on the Wall from the North start at the same time as the Wildling strike at Castle Black? Seems there was a delta time?

If they were close together then both could come season 4 , even as late as E4.

Maybe even D and D would make them simultaneous , since it seems the show runners now have the freedom (from HBO, I think?) to do one big thing per season.

So Rose be around , for a while, next season.

There was a fair amount of time between the attack from the South and the North of the Wall - remember that after the South attack, CB was partly burned, the ladders up the wall were purposefully burned to keep the Widlings from climbing, and they had gotten a start on repairing all of that before the North attack where Stannis saves the day.

[boojam]

There was a fair amount of time between the attack from the South and the North of the Wall - remember that after the South attack, CB was partly burned, the ladders up the wall were purposefully burned to keep the Widlings from climbing, and they had gotten a start on repairing all of that before the North attack where Stannis saves the day.

Yes that refreshes my memory.

Why did Mance do that?

Jon and NW were badly outnumbered it would over strained the NW resources if the two attacks had been coordinated.

Can't remember if George gave a reason.

[JMJ]

Yes that refreshes my memory.

Why did Mance do that?

Jon and NW were badly outnumbered it would over strained the NW resources if the two attacks had been coordinated.

Can't remember if George gave a reason.

As I recall, the only indication of the delay between North and South was because it took so much time and effort to move the entire crowd of Wildlings, families, giants, etc. That point seemed to have been emphasized pretty strongly. I don't remember any other tactical or other reason this happened.

[Septon Meribald]

As I recall, the only indication of the delay between North and South was because it took so much time and effort to move the entire crowd of Wildlings, families, giants, etc. That point seemed to have been emphasized pretty strongly. I don't remember any other tactical or other reason this happened.

Well the idea was for the attack from the south to be sudden and unexpected. The Watch was already looking north after the return from the Great Ranging and the Weeper's attack at the Bridge of Skulls which had drawn off the larger portion of Castle Black's fighting men. If it hadn't been for Jon's arrival and preparation for the attack from the Thenns Castle Black would have fallen and the gate would have been opened for Mance once he arrived as was planned.

Mance had several back up plans, so there would be no need to try to micromanage everything. The wildlings are still very independent people even if they have banded together, so Mance allows them to make their own decisions. If the Thenns failed at Castle Black, he still had the Weeper who might succeed at Shadow Tower. If not for that, he could attack head on at Castle Black as he did. If that failed he could send climbers to a dozen locations on the Wall at once. He out numbers the Watch 50 to 1 before the massive loss of manpower by the Watch at the Fist and in the Battle of Castle Black and the Bridge of Skulls. If all that fails, he has the Horn of Joruman. Simply put, if it hadn't been for Stannis, he would have won no matter what.

[JMJ]

Thanks for the detailed answer. That's true - forgot about how impressive the Wildling numbers were. It made it all the more stunning when it all just fell apart sofast at the Wall for them when Stannis' forces surprise them.

[Honourable Ser]

I can understand how he could be found to be a bit tedious, but the joviality of Tormund represents something that is severely missing in the show - and that is the joviality of the Wildlings in general. Its supposed to be an education for Jon (and for us) that despite the really grim conditions, the terror that is chasing them and brutality of life, that the Wildlings are still happy in their freedom.

I get that argument, but my personal belief is that living in a hard place like that, to rise to the top you have to have that grim mentality that means you can rise above those that seek to rise as well.