Roose killed Domeric ... And Barbrey Knows It

[bemused]

Oh, not so...

It was Sam's POV when Jon has him looking up the old records for information on the Others... just before he sends him off with Aemon and Gilly ... that made me think it must have been more than family tradition for Starks to be at the wall . Sam discovers that there have been other boy LCs before Jon ( I forget if it's 4 or 5, I'll have to look it up).. one as young as 10 ... and they were all Starks.

There would have to be a pretty imperative reason to choose a LC that young. I bet it will turn out that they were elected during a winter or just as one was about to set in. Sam found them far back in the annals; another piece of the Stark puzzle that's been forgotten. He tells Jon,but at the time it's just a curiosity to them. Jon doesn't even comment because he's worried about getting Aemon and the baby far away from Mel.

[Hrafntýr]

Mmm, where is all this discussion of Benjen and the NW going? I think I've lost the point! I don't see any textual evidence that either of the Ryswell girls were interested in Benjen. So, remind me of why we're talking about him?

[Tyryan Lannister]

Mmm, where is all this discussion of Benjen and the NW going? I think I've lost the point! I don't see any textual evidence that either of the Ryswell girls were interested in Benjen. So, remind me of why we're talking about him?

Because someone posted something that allowed me to take us down the rabbit hole... :devil:

[Pelican]

Given as a mark of her trustworthiness, Roose tells Ramsay .. "Lady Barbrey is a woman who knows how to nurse a grievance. Be grateful for that. "

Those words will come back to bite him.

I like your theory about Barbrey, Roose, and Domeric, bemused. It lends logic to how both Roose and Barbrey are behaving at Winterfell. One side question: Do you think this might mean Barbrey was involved in writing the pink letter? There have been theories already posted about that. She might want to draw Jon to Winterfell to bring an end to Roose. I haven't read the gift chapters -- Barbrey seems to disappear at the end of DwD (if I remember that correctly); have we seen her in WoW so far?

[Nucky Thompson]

Just a prediction - before the end of the series, Roose Bolton will flay a white walker!

[bemused]

We're talking about him because Barbrey's story doesn't hold up ... yet the details about the youth of that generation of Northern teens/young adults are shrouded in mystery. We have to piece together hints from story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree , the Tower of Joy , etc... and Benjen is smack dab in the middle of everything.

One thing touches another .... And ( ahem) knowing whose thing touched whose would also help. ;)

The thing is, I don't think we know how much of a "pup" Benjen was at the time of the KoLT, so whether he's a candidate for father of Domeric is not known ..if he is ,maybe it would be more likely that it would have been during RR,while he held WF .. and I'm not sure the timing would work . I'm not sure of the ages of Barbrey and Bethany, either...

In Barrowton, I believe Theon thinks Barbrey looks about 40 which would probably put her about the same age as Ned, or slightly younger .. wasn't he 38 when he went south with Robert ? ( I'm not sure where I read that )

I agree that it's telling that she asks where Ned's tomb is first and though she touches the knee of Brandon's statue it Ned's " likeness " that draws her last "lingering " look. ( and I, too, suspect she already has Ned's bones .)

I don't see Barbrey as a player of the Game insofar as possession of the IT is concerned , only in the rulership of the North.. and especially because it touches her personally , in some way. There's no House ambition here. She has no offspring to promote .. but she has scores to settle.

We have to go down at least one of the rabbit holes and explore the warren to try to make sense of what's going on.

Full confession.. I think there will need to be a Stark in WF and leading the NW..I think BJ is the HM ( interim Stark in WF ).. or did I already say that ? :D That's two, count'em two Starks , Jon and BJ, who could end up swapping locations. Think of the Stark line heading into winter. Rickon is too young to have children..Bran unlikely ,and too busy .. with the girls , there's a risk of another house taking over. Jon "Stark" is the likeliest / safest candidate to continue the line.( I'm sure Benjen could, but would be less likely to be able to see his offspring to adulthood )

Anyway , someone mentioned that Barbrey may have formed an alliance with Mance... but I think the chances are even more so with Benjen ,who she would have known well , if not had a personal fondness for. If her Stark "love" was not Ned ( but I think it was), it may have been BJ... I think she may have known or known of Mance as Abel, considering the number of trips he made over the wall, but she would have had a level of trust with BJ that Mance could not elicit....Mind you , I'm sure the whole Northern Conspiracy would absorb Mance's mission into their general plan .. but maybe even without Mance knowing, at first ..hence the addition of Myrtle to his party as a sort of safety valve.. ( This is another rabbit hole, see the threads about the Liddle )

Could I see her as being involved with the pink letter ? Yes, but in concert with the other members of the conspiracy. ( If Mance wrote it , I think it would have to be with her / their help ).. but my favourite author so far, after reading the Theon WoW chapter , is Stannis. ( Still , all the "Come see"s in the letter sound like the GNC)

No, Barbrey was not in the Theon chapter , so I doubt we'll see more of her until TWoW. I don't think GRRM will put out anything more alluding to the battle or Jon's situation ahead of publication...(Dang it !)

[Chrodarcniss]

Benjen is smack dab in the middle of everything.

The thing is, I don't think we know how much of a "pup" Benjen was at the time of the KoLT, so whether he's a candidate for father of Domeric is not known ..if he is ,maybe it would be more likely that it would have been during RR,while he held WF .. and I'm not sure the timing would work . I'm not sure of the ages of Barbrey and Bethany, either...

In Barrowton, I believe Theon thinks Barbrey looks about 40 which would probably put her about the same age as Ned, or slightly younger .. wasn't he 38 when he went south with Robert ? ( I'm not sure where I read that )

I agree that it's telling that she asks where Ned's tomb is first and though she touches the knee of Brandon's statue it Ned's " likeness " that draws her last "lingering " look. ( and I, too, suspect she already has Ned's bones .)

Could I see her as being involved with the pink letter ? Yes, but in concert with the other members of the conspiracy. ( If Mance wrote it , I think it would have to be with her / their help ).. but my favourite author so far, after reading the Theon WoW chapter , is Stannis.

We also know very little about Benjen. The only reason we even know he's younger (99% sure) then Lyanna is contexual and from Bran's vision. Depending on how much he knows, both about the past and the present, he probably has the power to knit house Stark back together again and potentionally even the Noth. There is for example good reason to believe he might be working with Bloodraven and/or Howland Reed. He is liked and trusted by all of the Stark children and presumably with many of the Lord and Ladies if he ruled Winterfell during Ned's absence. If anyone can bring down house Bolton from the shadows, it's him.

Btw Bemused, yes by the time RR ended he would be 14 at the most and likely younger. Bethany is Barbrey's younger sister, though we don't know by how many years. Ned was 18 or 19 when RR started, 19 or 20 at the end. I don't know if it's fair to assume Barbrey is younger than she looks, but she can't have had it easy being a widow. Ned was only 36 I think though, so he'd have to overshoot her age by 4 and the difference between Bethany and Barbrey would have to be around 4-7 years I'd say, which is not impossible. Well that and they'd both be pretty young obviously. That Benjen specifically says to Jon: “You are a boy of fourteen,” “Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up.” always made me think he has known one though.

Stannis was my guess after I read AdwD. I like the way you think :cheers:

[bemused]

Cheers, chrodarcniss.. and thanks for clearing this up ..I had checked up on the Ryswell sisters a while ago, and was somehow remembering Bethany as the elder ... Aha! She was the second daughter.. soooo.. I'd think that might put Benjen in the pcture , right enough..

And yes, I always assumed Benjen knew exactly what Jon would be missing , but for the longest time couldn't think of a candidate ( although one need never have been identified ). In the Knight of the Laughing Tree , isn't Benjen also called the pup or the cub ? That's always suggested pre-teen ,maybe 12 or so to me..

Anyway, through all this ruminating on Barbrey's tales , I think her resentment of maesters , particularly Maester Walys, is well founded. I can't help getting a picture of all these Northern teens, hormones a-raging , having their young lives shattered by political machinations ( poor baby beans)... particularly when previous to Walys' schemes, it seems at least some of them would have been better off. According to Barbrey, before his influence , Rickard probably would have been perfectly happy to marry some of his children to those of his bannermen.

One has to wonder if either Ned or Benjen demanded a replacement from the citadel ? ( An accident in the woods doesn't seem like the style of either one. However , I wouldn't like his chances if he ever met Barbrey in a lonely spot :D )

[Clueless Northman]

Lady Dustin states clearly and openly that she's looking for Ned's bones to destroy them.

It would make sense that it's to hide her real motives, which would be to make sure someone who cared for Ned gets hold of his bones, because odds are that the Boltons occupying Winterfell would actually get rid of them - not to mention flay the Stark men who carried the bones.

Besides, this chat with Theon gives Dustin an occasion to go to the crypts and see where she'll later have to lay down the bones (as well as checking if swords were taken from othe graves, confirming the tale of Bran and Rickon's survival).

As for Domeric, I've always wondered if he wasn't Reek, of course after being tortured and perverted by one of the Boltons.

I assumed it would be Ramsay because I assumed Domeric was really Bolton's kid, though odds are that if Roose suspected Domeric wasn't his, he might as well have punished him himself, sent him to fetch his new heir at her mom's house, and given him to Ramsay as a pet to abuse.

[nedhed]

Oh, not so...

It was Sam's POV when Jon has him looking up the old records for information on the Others... just before he sends him off with Aemon and Gilly ... that made me think it must have been more than family tradition for Starks to be at the wall . Sam discovers that there have been other boy LCs before Jon ( I forget if it's 4 or 5, I'll have to look it up).. one as young as 10 ... and they were all Starks.

There would have to be a pretty imperative reason to choose a LC that young. I bet it will turn out that they were elected during a winter or just as one was about to set in. Sam found them far back in the annals; another piece of the Stark puzzle that's been forgotten. He tells Jon,but at the time it's just a curiosity to them. Jon doesn't even comment because he's worried about getting Aemon and the baby far away from Mel.

Thanks! Missed this when first posted. Enough to let me believe what I want to bieve.

[nedhed]

@ Northmen, I like the idea that barb's loud and clear "I hate Starks" is a 180% misdirection. Don't have to be a marvelous bastard to play that move, and would appear totally consistent with the story m, especially considered in hindsight.

[Runaway Penguin]

Lady Dustin states clearly and openly that she's looking for Ned's bones to destroy them.

It would make sense that it's to hide her real motives, which would be to make sure someone who cared for Ned gets hold of his bones, because odds are that the Boltons occupying Winterfell would actually get rid of them - not to mention flay the Stark men who carried the bones.

Worse yet, if Boltons got the bones, they can use them for a dog-and-pony show of letting "Ned Stark's Little Girl" to lay the bones to rest in crypts, gaining even more legitimacy to their claims.

She may not like the Starks and she really holds grudge, most likely - because The North Remembers. However she also doesn't want Boltons up there and holds probably much much more grudge against them and Freys.

[Hrafntýr]

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Worse yet, if Boltons got the bones, they can use them for a dog-and-pony show of letting "Ned Stark's Little Girl" to lay the bones to rest in crypts, gaining even more legitimacy to their claims.

She may not like the Starks and she really holds grudge, most likely - because The North Remembers. However she also doesn't want Boltons up there and holds probably much much more grudge against them and Freys.

I think there are far more serious possibilities here. I think that Roose's seeming perpetual youth is related to his mention of the bones beneath the Dreadfort (though he mentions only the bones of his own lineage). Barbrey may be out to ensure that Roose doesn't get hold of Ned's bones for his magical shenanigans. I say this not because I believe Barbrey loved Ned in particular, but because Barbrey is working against Roose, and doesn't want the bones to fall into his hands.

[brut]

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I think there are far more serious possibilities here. I think that Roose's seeming perpetual youth is related to his mention of the bones beneath the Dreadfort (though he mentions only the bones of his own lineage). Barbrey may be out to ensure that Roose doesn't get hold of Ned's bones for his magical shenanigans. I say this not because I believe Barbrey loved Ned in particular, but because Barbrey is working against Roose, and doesn't want the bones to fall into his hands.

Question is, would Roose be able to use other abundantly available Stark bones for the same purpose?

[Hrafntýr]

Question is, would Roose be able to use other abundantly available Stark bones for the same purpose?

Question is, does Roose know where the Winterfell crypts are?

[brut]

Most probably he is aware that Stark crypts exist. He surely knows there is Stark graveyard. So, those Stark bones are basically within the 6 feet reach. Also, now that Barbrey scouted the crypts he can also have access to the Stark kings/lords.

[Hrafntýr]

Most probably he is aware that Stark crypts exist. He surely knows there is Stark graveyard. So, those Stark bones are basically within the 6 feet reach. Also, now that Barbrey scouted the crypts he can also have access to the Stark kings/lords.

Well, I'm sure he knows they exist, but I see Barbrey and Roose as in opposition, so the fact that Barbrey scouted the crypts does not mean Roose knows about them. Barbrey's got her own game going on with the crypts, but personally I think that she's working against Roose, and does not plan to share her information about the crypts with him.

[brut]

And if Roose never bothers about the crypts, and hits the graveyards, he'd still be having Stark bones...

[Hrafntýr]

And if Roose never bothers about the crypts, and hits the graveyards, he'd still be having Stark bones...

True, but they won't be the bones of kings, which may matter, if we use the analogy of Mel's blood magic, and trust her insistence that king's blood is more powerful than non-king's blood. Or there may be some other magical hijinks going on with the crypts, I don't really know, but the books have made a point of telling us when people come to know of the crypts, as we saw in Bran's (I think) anger at Rickon for showing the Walders the crypts. It's possible, too, that Roose has come to know of them through one of the Walders, or at least Little Walder before he died. I think Big Walder is holding this card close, because he's waiting to see which way things go at Winterfell before he aligns himself with one of the various parties scheming there,

[brut]

Yes, absolutely. Still, king's blood doesn't mean the king himself as Mel so clearly indicates to Stannis when asking for Edric Storm's sacrifice. What I'm saying is that assuming Stark bones can be used for Roose's rejuvenating purposes similar to the Bolton bones may be taking this too far. Having said that, I'd agree that considering how "bones remember" some magic shenanigans can indeed occur.