Roose killed Domeric ... And Barbrey Knows It

[Stark@heart]

Sorry, I just have to say. I sooooo want to see the Ghosts of Winterfell in action! Lady Barbary give me hope!

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Roose is way cold but still, his rightful (in the eyes of men) heir is killed by his bastard and his bastard is being well rewarded. For the time being. I was thinking that part of Roose's game with Ramsey was to raise him up high to throw him down again to his rightful place. Letting him be "Domeric" for a while before making him pay dearly for it.

That Roose could have wanted Dom dead for being too much like a Stark? That's interesting. I could see him sending Ramsey off with the poision in his pocket if he came think that his "true" son was not his. I could even see him taking the long approach in his vengence against the House that put the Bastard in his bed.

I thinking now that Lady Dustin could suspect that Roose set Ramsey to get rid of Domeric. If there was a possibility and later the boy had the look or the traits of the Starks, well, I think Roose would put 2 & 2 together and start thinking of making his own pies, so to speak.

Lady Dustin is playing a long game too. I think she resents being denied a place in House Stark, regardless of which Stark she boffed or wanted to boff and I think she's still hung up on House Stark.

[Hrafntýr]

Lady Dustin is playing a long game too. I think she resents being denied a place in House Stark, regardless of which Stark she boffed or wanted to boff and I think she's still hung up on House Stark.

This is well said!

[siknes]

None of this matters, The Bolton line will be no more, very soon. It is a wonder they weren't taken out back in the day when they were truly making cloaks out of human flesh. The only explanation is that pretty much everyone in the N has Stark blood, so they didn't want to be kinslayers and be cursed by their old gods. Lady Barbrey seems like just a hateful B..... But it was her first statement to Theon that is the truth(We both aspired to be Starks) she loved Ned I guess. From what I took away from the story of the Ashara, Ned(shy wolf) liked her but wouldn't ask her hand to dance, so Wild Wolf(Brandon) helped out. Also from her story of Rickon's grand ambitions of siding with the South and Riverlands, It seems he was planning a rebellion of his own, which us why he and Brandon were killed. I am not sure what the real first domino(Like Ned's head for the current events) that started of (Robert's rebellion) 1.Raegar and Lyanna going off(Kidnapped) or 2. the killing of Lord and first heir of WF, one by burning, one by cruel torture devise.

[Crows Eye]

Sorry, I just have to say. I sooooo want to see the Ghosts of Winterfell in action! Lady Barbary give me hope!

Back to Topic

Roose is way cold but still, his rightful (in the eyes of men) heir is killed by his bastard and his bastard is being well rewarded. For the time being. I was thinking that part of Roose's game with Ramsey was to raise him up high to throw him down again to his rightful place. Letting him be "Domeric" for a while before making him pay dearly for it.

That Roose could have wanted Dom dead for being too much like a Stark? That's interesting. I could see him sending Ramsey off with the poision in his pocket if he came think that his "true" son was not his. I could even see him taking the long approach in his vengence against the House that put the Bastard in his bed.

I thinking now that Lady Dustin could suspect that Roose set Ramsey to get rid of Domeric. If there was a possibility and later the boy had the look or the traits of the Starks, well, I think Roose would put 2 & 2 together and start thinking of making his own pies, so to speak.

Lady Dustin is playing a long game too. I think she resents being denied a place in House Stark, regardless of which Stark she boffed or wanted to boff and I think she's still hung up on House Stark.

Whenever Roose talks of Domeric's death, he is certain to blame Ramsay. But he also suggests that Domeric defied him in seeking Ramsay out. Maybe Domeric is a Stark bastard, maybe he isn't, but Roose may have killed Domeric for that simple defiance. Ramsay's mother has strange power over Roose - she successfully acquires Reek - so maybe he did not want Domeric to find her. Or perhaps she killed Domeric, why not? She certainly wants what's best for Ramsay, and the opportunity to remove his only obstacle to the eventual rulership of the Dreadfort was maybe too good to miss.

If Roose poisoned Domeric, then he is both kinslayer and kingslayer.

I suspect Lady Dustin is not working against Roose. From everything I've seen Roose is one of the shrewdest characters, and Barbary is the only person he seems to trust. For such a calculating and clever character to be undermined/undone by the sole object of his trust is too simple a fate for him. While she might scheme independently, I think there's something fundamentally uniting them, something we haven't been made privy to. Like, that Roose Bolton is a sorcerer, or something.

My two cents? Ned's bones are with Howland Reed. Dustin doesn't have them - yet.

[bemused]

I don't think this argument can be made too many times ...Ramsay's mother had no power over Roose.

This is one of those things that came out of a big leap of imagination on the forums . ( Leading to crackpottery , IMO) She didn't seduce him - he raped her. It wasn't love at first sight, and it wasn't even an act of sexual lust ( though it probably was lust for his "right" to the first night). He thought of her as "healthy" looking , more in the way one would look at livestock than some otherworldly siren. It wasn't a spell or glamour ,either. In Roose's eyes , her husband had denied him his due , and the man was killed for it . Then the brother in law was killed ..not because he turfed the woman out , but because he might have reported Roose's continued practice of the "Lord's Right " to Rickard Stark.

Maybe she wanted the best for Ramsay, but she certainly didn't get it. The monetary help she received was minimal, when you think of what help Roose would have been able to give . He could have provided Ramsay a better education , or some sort of apprenticeship ( a la Gendry ). He could have sent some worthy retainer to guide the boy , but he sent Reek ( questionable help for Ramsay but definitely a help in keeping other people away )...And where is the woman, alive ? dead ? hidden away somewhere ? ...We don't see her , Ramsay never mentions her that we hear , though he may have given some version of events to Theon ..and Roose only mentions her in an objectified way or to put the blame on her for the way Ramsay has turned out . What may have been pleas for assistance from her, become demands on Roose's lips ... She made him , her and Reek ... ( Not my fault ).

Wow ! Some power that woman had.( Excuse me for rolling my eyes. )

It was Ramsay's eyes , indisputably like Roose's , that had the power to stay Roose's hand ,when he otherwise would have killed mother and child. We don't know when the Bolton brothers that died in their cribs died ..before or after the birth of Ramsay (I don't think we even know for sure which wife they were born to ) .. It may just be that Ramsay was the first or only one of Roose's offspring that showed such a recognizable Bolton trait.

If Roose killed Domeric because he correctly thought him to be a Stark , that wouldn't be kinslaying ( just a regular murder ) but there still might be questions in regard to those babies. They may have died from natural causes , or they may have been Bolton , but not quite Bolton - looking enough for Roose.

It's not impossible that Roose is a sorcerer , but we've yet to see him work any magic... so I don't know why we would think that.

I think this idea originated partly from his appearance. It's hard to tell his age , but it's not implied anywhere that he would be of an older generation than Ned and his siblings. He's just a well preserved 40-ish man . People who show no emotions don't encourage facial lines ( laugh lines, frown lines , sneers , wrinkled brows , etc). And then there's the leeches. He's pale because he uses the leeches regularly. He recommends the leeches to Ramsay to cleanse his blood of passions, or to keep them in check... I really think that's self explanatory. ..Can we doubt that underneath his dispassionate veneer Roose himself has been subject to such passions in his youth? We know he's cruel, but coldly cruel. He shows no revulsion at Ramsay's horrific acts ( his "amusements" ), he just wants him to keep them out of the public eye.( He says... At the same time , they may give him a vicarious thrill.)

Another source for the speculation is the book that Roose burned at Harrenhall . It could have contained all sorts of information. So far , we've seen people discover past history or lineages through old books , not any specific "how to" spells ...Black Harren was rumoured to have mixed blood into the mortar used in the building of his castle .. but even if true, and even if it was written down ( maybe not a thing you'd want to write down ), that wouldn't seem to apply to anything Roose is currently undertaking. The book may not have contained knowledge that would help him directly , but would help someone else if they read it. ( In other words, burning it might be another political decision. ) ... So far there's no indication of what it contained.

There is definitely something that makes you feel queasy about the Boltons' long history of flaying people and keeping their skins ( or reportedly wearing them ). Might be trophies, or some kind of "up yours" approximation of skinchanging.. or it might have had some magical origin, real or hoped for ( we don't know yet ) ... But for sure it was cruel and sadistic , which the Boltons are known for.

[Mithras]

As an addition, I think Barbrey did not have sex with Brandon. It was her sister Bethany and Barbrey was implying that Domeric was Brandon’s bastard.

[bemused]

Yes, I think so too , as I said earlier.. but I 'm in the middle of updating this as some information that was in the wiki has changed slightly , and some of my ideas have changed or expanded a bit. I don't know if I'll update here or Start a new thread ( I'm also working on that Gilly thing and i'm very challenged for time)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Didn't have time to read the entire thread, only the OP, so this might have already come up, but where in the books is it stated when Bethany died?

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

Didn't have time to read the entire thread, only the OP, so this might have already come up, but where in the books is it stated when Bethany died?

It's not really stated WHEN Bethany died, but how she died. According to the A Dance with Dragons Appendix, she died of a fever. When I saw that, I immediately suspected that Roose or Ramsay had had her killed with poison, or maybe even Ramsay's mother.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It's not really stated WHEN Bethany died, but how she died. According to the A Dance with Dragons Appendix, she died of a fever. When I saw that, I immediately suspected that Roose or Ramsay had had her killed with poison, or maybe even Ramsay's mother.

That´s exactly what I thought, that Bethany´s date of death has never been stated. Actually, I have been certain of that for a few months, having gone through every word in asoiaf for the wiki-project ;)

So why the OP claims to have a date for Bethany's death... I don't know.. I was just wondering where that came from, as it is nowhere stated in canon.

It's often repeated that Barbrey blames Ramsay for Domeric's death , but she may actually blame Roose... And she may blame him for more than Domeric's death . Domeric died after returning to live, or spend time at the Dreadfort.. His death came 2 years before the War of the 5 Kings , by poison according to Roose.. His mother, Bethany, died 2 yrs later... the year the war began .. of "a fever ". (Whether Barbrey grieves the loss of her sister is never mentioned.)

[JonBranRickon]

Roose will not kill Ramsey unless it is in self-defense. I see no other way or he will be apply named a kin-slayer which seems to be an odious title that no one wants hold.

[bemused]

That´s exactly what I thought, that Bethany´s date of death has never been stated. Actually, I have been certain of that for a few months, having gone through every word in asoiaf for the wiki-project ;)

So why the OP claims to have a date for Bethany's death... I don't know.. I was just wondering where that came from, as it is nowhere stated in canon.

Au-u-ugh! I was going to update , but I've been very distracted with other things ... Your'e right that it's not stated when Betheny died... but up until it was last revised this past August, the wiki said that she died just before Robb went south ... this is one of the updates I was going to make. ... At the same time , the way information re: poisons and medicines is presented in the wiki has also changed, so whereas before, it pointedly said that fevers could be treated in a way to guarantee a prolonged but inevitable death, now it doesn't... but there is still general information that medicines can be used as poisons and vice versa , and there are other in-story examples of medicines being used in a detrimental way.

But neither of these changes does anything, really, to lay suspicions around Bethany's death to rest ... just makes them a little less obvious.

However , you do spur me on to finish my revisions and open a new thread. Some of my ideas have changed slightly and I have some additions as well.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Au-u-ugh! I was going to update , but I've been very distracted with other things ... Your'e right that it's not stated when Betheny died... but up until it was last revised this past August, the wiki said that she died just before Robb went south ... this is one of the updates I was going to make. ... At the same time , the way information re: poisons and medicines is presented in the wiki has also changed, so whereas before, it pointedly said that fevers could be treated in a way to guarantee a prolonged but inevitable death, now it doesn't... but there is still general information that medicines can be used as poisons and vice versa , and there are other in-story examples of medicines being used in a detrimental way.

But neither of these changes does anything, really, to lay suspicions around Bethany's death to rest ... just makes them a little less obvious.

However , you do spur me on to finish my revisions and open a new thread. Some of my ideas have changed slightly and I have some additions as well.

Aaah.. You have no idea how long I had been searching for the quote on when she died.. :p

In the end, I just adopted the question of "when" in my Wiki-timeline project :p

[bemused]

:blushing: Sorry about that.. This - :bang: - was me , when I realised it had been changed , over a year after I started the thread, and not due to new info from GRRM. :D

Needless to say , I'm curious to see if any light will be shed in the Bolton family tree I think we're supposed to be getting in TWoIaF.

[nickdt]

We don't know Ramsays mommie. What if it is Lady Barbray herself. That she was raped by Roose.

[RobertRivers]

I wouldn't be surprised if roose killed him to keep his immortality going.

I wouldn't be surprised if he sacrificed him to the others.

i would be surprised if he killed him so Rams could be his heir.

[RobertRivers]

Roose will not kill Ramsey unless it is in self-defense. I see no other way or he will be apply named a kin-slayer which seems to be an odious title that no one wants hold.

what if roose killed him by sending him to do battle against Stannis? Maybe he saw Ramsey as an enemy, and we all know what roose does to people he considers enemies under his command. He is ain't called the leech lord for nothing.

[bemused]

I wouldn't be surprised if roose killed him to keep his immortality going.

I wouldn't be surprised if he sacrificed him to the others.

i would be surprised if he killed him so Rams could be his heir.

Do you think he would keep a boy he thought was Brandon Stark's bastard as his heir ? (That is one of the premises of this tread.) ..I definitely do not.

[RobertRivers]

Do you think he would keep a boy he thought was Brandon Stark's bastard as his heir ? (That is one of the premises of this tread.) ..I definitely do not.

I missed the part where Ramsey was Brandon Starks kid. I was just excited that there was a roose bolton based thread that I just skimmed over some of it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think Roose killed Domeric himself ,before officially recognizing Ramsay and ultimately having him legitimized . He's sure Ramsay is his son , but probably had serious doubts about Domeric. He's so nonchalant about the chances of survival that Walda's potential babies will enjoy ( slim to none ) , that I think he's perfectly satisfied with his current heir. ( Heigh ho , boy lords are the bane of any house , anyway .... Gee, thanks dad. )

Why? There is nothing in text that suggests so, right?

It's often repeated that Barbrey blames Ramsay for Domeric's death , but she may actually blame Roose... And she may blame him for more than Domeric's death . Domeric died after returning to live, or spend time at the Dreadfort.. His death came 2 years before the War of the 5 Kings , by poison according to Roose.. His mother, Bethany, died 2 yrs later... the year the war began .. of "a fever ". (Whether Barbrey grieves the loss of her sister is never mentioned.)

I've mentioned this earlier.. Bethany's date of death isn't stated anywhere.. She could have died several years before Domeric.