[Book Spoilers] Any redemption for Stannis in this episode?

[Toxspecific]

At the time he was given Dragonstone, just after the rebellion, this was true. But as time passed by, the situation changed. Once Robert had children (well, they were officially his children) Stannis was no longer the heir. Meanwhile, Storm's End, the seat of the lord of the Stormlands, was ruled by Renly. Would he have given it up to Stannis once Dragonstone became the seat of Robert's son? What about the next generation - if both Stannis and Renly had children, who would've inherited Storm's End? The Stormlands being ruled from Dragonstone seems awkward. Would Renly's child get the title ahead of Stannis' child? Or was Robert planning on Tommen having it? If Stannis had been sitting firm in Storm's End, it would've been a much less complicated situation.

All of us in the ASOIAF fanbase knows Stannis' campaign is officially unlawful, but in truth it is lawful.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

At the time he was given Dragonstone, just after the rebellion, this was true. But as time passed by, the situation changed. Once Robert had children (well, they were officially his children) Stannis was no longer the heir. Meanwhile, Storm's End, the seat of the lord of the Stormlands, was ruled by Renly. Would he have given it up to Stannis once Dragonstone became the seat of Robert's son? What about the next generation - if both Stannis and Renly had children, who would've inherited Storm's End? The Stormlands being ruled from Dragonstone seems awkward. Would Renly's child get the title ahead of Stannis' child? Or was Robert planning on Tommen having it? If Stannis had been sitting firm in Storm's End, it would've been a much less complicated situation.

According to Martin, both Storm's End and Dragonstone belong to Robert and Martin states that Robert would have been well within his rights to give one to each son. Since Robert dies before his sons reach the age of majority, we can only guess but he would have had to redistribute everything once Joffrey reached 16 since he would be given Dragonstone. It was a seat of honor regardless of what Stannis thought.

[Mammothsbane]

Of course he believes he's the Azor Ahai and all the other things Melisandre has whispered in his ear:

The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies... a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone... she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?” He ground his teeth. “We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must... we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty."

“I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning... burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means?

That second quote doesn't really mean he thinks he's AA. I think it just means he knows this war will kill him.

He was rewarded. He was given Dragonstone because that is the seat of the heir to the throne. Robert designated Stannis his heir through that act. Paying attention to what Cersei thinks is ridiculous since she has proven she doesn't understand strategic moves. Even Martin has stated that Stannis is wrong in his interpretation of these events and that Robert had been very generous. Stannis does feel slighted. He feels slighted that Robert didn't acknowledge his acts, he feels slighted that he didn't get Storm's End, he feels slighted that he wasn't made hand, he feels slighted about everything. His belief that he is not appreciated is a crucial motivating factor for Stannis.

When did Martin say Stannis was wrong in his interpretation? I'd be interested to see the quote. I wouldn't say Robert was generous. He straight up admits he doesn't love his brothers and loves Ned instead. I don't understand why you'd think Robert was secretly giving all this affection to his brothers. He wasn't. He thanked Ned when the siege of Storms End was lifted. He then gave Storms End to Renly. He then blamed Stannis for letting the Targs escape Dragonstone even though they had left long before he was ordered to do it.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

When did Martin say Stannis was wrong in his interpretation? I'd be interested to see the quote. I wouldn't say Robert was generous. He straight up admits he doesn't love his brothers and loves Ned instead. I don't understand why you'd think Robert was secretly giving all this affection to his brothers. He wasn't. He thanked Ned when the siege of Storms End was lifted. He then gave Storms End to Renly. He then blamed Stannis for letting the Targs escape Dragonstone even though they had left long before he was ordered to do it.

http://www.westeros....theon_Brothers/

We discussed whether Robert loved his brother Renly or not. Haaruk thought so, while I never envisioned their relationship as more than lukewarm. (Jaime said Robert hardly could stomach his brothers (plural form)). Which is correct?

There are many different kinds of love. Robert was dutiful toward his brothers, and no doubt loved them in a way... but he didn't necessarily like them. His relations with Stannis were always prickly. Renly was the baby of the family, and spent little time in Robert's company until he was old enough to come to court. I suspect Robert was fond of the boy, but not especially close to him.

Stannis always resented being given Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End, and took that as a slight... but it's not necessarily true that Robert meant it that way. The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later). Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity.

eta:

That second quote doesn't really mean he thinks he's AA. I think it just means he knows this war will kill him.

The second and the first both show he bought into the prophecy completely (part of which is that he is the AA).

[ShigellaSand]

According to Martin, both Storm's End and Dragonstone belong to Robert and Martin states that Robert would have been well within his rights to give one to each son. Since Robert dies before his sons reach the age of majority, we can only guess but he would have had to redistribute everything once Joffrey reached 16 since he would be given Dragonstone. It was a seat of honor regardless of what Stannis thought.

http://www.westeros....theon_Brothers/

We discussed whether Robert loved his brother Renly or not. Haaruk thought so, while I never envisioned their relationship as more than lukewarm. (Jaime said Robert hardly could stomach his brothers (plural form)). Which is correct?

There are many different kinds of love. Robert was dutiful toward his brothers, and no doubt loved them in a way... but he didn't necessarily like them. His relations with Stannis were always prickly. Renly was the baby of the family, and spent little time in Robert's company until he was old enough to come to court. I suspect Robert was fond of the boy, but not especially close to him.

Stannis always resented being given Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End, and took that as a slight... but it's not necessarily true that Robert meant it that way. The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later). Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity.

I don't quite take the same thing away from that quote as you do. Yes, Robert had the right to do whatever he wanted with both castles - but once he did give them to his brothers, could he take them back to give to his sons instead? That's not at all clear. Which is more or less the point I was making, that renly having Storm's End muddied the waters where inheritance was concerned. Would it still go to Shireen? Would she be Lady of the Stormlands once Robert and Stannis were gone, or would Renly's claim be stronger?

[Mammothsbane]

http://www.westeros....theon_Brothers/

We discussed whether Robert loved his brother Renly or not. Haaruk thought so, while I never envisioned their relationship as more than lukewarm. (Jaime said Robert hardly could stomach his brothers (plural form)). Which is correct?

There are many different kinds of love. Robert was dutiful toward his brothers, and no doubt loved them in a way... but he didn't necessarily like them. His relations with Stannis were always prickly. Renly was the baby of the family, and spent little time in Robert's company until he was old enough to come to court. I suspect Robert was fond of the boy, but not especially close to him.

Stannis always resented being given Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End, and took that as a slight... but it's not necessarily true that Robert meant it that way. The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later). Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity.

Thank you.. but that still doesn't change the fact that Stannis got a shit rock in the middle of the sea while baby Renly got the nicer(?) Storms End. I think everyone knew Robert would eventually get an heir, as he had bastards before (thus wasn't impotent).

The second and the first both show he bought into the prophecy completely (part of which is that he is the AA).

I don't see how the second quote suggests he believes he is AA. He says a crown of fire (which his crown has little golden or bronze flames) consumes him and turns him to ash. He isn't reborn in the flames. They consume him. And the first quote doesn't sell me on it either. "Yet dare I disregard her?" is suggesting that he is unsure, but knows she's powerful. We know she's a moron and wrong, but he doesn't. Stannis is LARGELY atheistic. It's a core character trait. He is skeptical of anything to do with religious undertones. However, Mel is powerful. So I think he is in a bit of a pickle.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I don't quite take the same thing away from that quote as you do. Yes, Robert had the right to do whatever he wanted with both castles - but once he did give them to his brothers, could he take them back to give to his sons instead? That's not at all clear. Which is more or less the point I was making, that renly having Storm's End muddied the waters where inheritance was concerned. Would it still go to Shireen? Would she be Lady of the Stormlands once Robert and Stannis were gone, or would Renly's claim be stronger?

It is extremely clear. Dragonstone would definitely be given to Joffrey. Martin is saying that person who received Storm's End would most likely depend on many circumstances and would go to who ever Robert thought made the most sense. You are focusing on the Baratheon brothers but it would more than likely have gone to Robert's son, Tommen Baratheon. Shireen would most likely never inherit it unless a lot of other people died.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Thank you.. but that still doesn't change the fact that Stannis got a shit rock in the middle of the sea while baby Renly got the nicer(?) Storms End. I think everyone knew Robert would eventually get an heir, as he had bastards before (thus wasn't impotent).

Interesting that everyone uses Martin's quote that Stannis is a just man as proof but you don't find his quote that Storm's End was not a slight enough to convince you. If he can't, clearly I won't be able to either.

[Mammothsbane]

Interesting that everyone uses Martin's quote that Stannis is a just man as proof but you don't find his quote that Storm's End was not a slight enough to convince you. If he can't, clearly I won't be able to either.

I didn't say that. I just meant that it was a short-sighted gift, given that he was going to lose the castle when Joffrey came of age[presumably] (assuming that Robert kept the Targ traditions, which Martin is implying but who the hell knows. Robert hated the Targs. Why would he even keep their traditions?)

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I didn't say that. I just meant that it was a short-sighted gift, given that he was going to lose the castle when Joffrey came of age (assuming that Robert kept the Targ traditions, which Martin is implying but who the hell knows. Robert hated the Targs. Why would he even keep their traditions?)

Why wouldn't he? And it's the Targ tradition to give the heir Dragonstone. Otherwise, it is the tradition of Westeros that the first son inherits and then his son. By tradition, neither Stannis nor Renly should have inherited anything. That's the generosity that Martin refers to. It should have gone to his sons. So perhaps it was short sighted in that neither would keep the lands they were given but it still doesn't support Stannis' interpretation. More than likely Robert believed Renly would remain at Storm's End as a family member and adviser once he gave it to Tommen and that Stannis had a different role to play in the future at court or perhaps he would remain at Storm's End as adviser and protector when it passed to Joffrey.

[Winter's Prince]

I think by having Shireen show him that boat Dvos gave her shows Stannis that the Onion Knight is not just a servant but a true friend to his family expect Selyse. A man who goes out of his way to help your child and be there for them is a great respect.

More than that I think Stannis was thinking to himself that this man has done a lot for me.

Shireen will be the one to reunite them.

[Will&Chrismom]

The whole Stannis thing has always bored me to tears; the show seems to be trying to make him a bit more sympathetic, which is fine, but man, oh man. He is a bad father. It's not enough to love his kid--maybe he ought to insist she not be locked in a tower, and maybe he ought not to crush her spirit by bringing down the hammer so hard about Ser Davos. Poor kid looked devastated, and it only took Stannis two minutes to ruin his daughter's day. He's not much of a dad, but then, he's stellar compared to Tywin Lannister and Craster.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

The whole Stannis thing has always bored me to tears; the show seems to be trying to make him a bit more sympathetic, which is fine, but man, oh man. He is a bad father. It's not enough to love his kid--maybe he ought to insist she not be locked in a tower, and maybe he ought not to crush her spirit by bringing down the hammer so hard about Ser Davos. Poor kid looked devastated, and it only took Stannis two minutes to ruin his daughter's day. He's not much of a dad, but then, he's stellar compared to Tywin Lannister and Craster.

I agree and yet, this is more than book Stannis ever did with his child. Really sad.

[StannisandDaeny]

Of course he believes he's the Azor Ahai and all the other things Melisandre has whispered in his ear:

The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies... a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone... she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?” He ground his teeth. “We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must... we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty."

“I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning... burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means?

The first quote points to Stannis being scared he will not do his duty if he doesn't listen to Melisandre. He could accept defending the realm is his duty without thinking he's Azor Ahai.

The second quote means he believes he's going to die.

He was rewarded. He was given Dragonstone because that is the seat of the heir to the throne. Robert designated Stannis his heir through that act. Paying attention to what Cersei thinks is ridiculous since she has proven she doesn't understand strategic moves. Even Martin has stated that Stannis is wrong in his interpretation of these events and that Robert had been very generous. Stannis does feel slighted. He feels slighted that Robert didn't acknowledge his acts, he feels slighted that he didn't get Storm's End, he feels slighted that he wasn't made hand, he feels slighted about everything. His belief that he is not appreciated is a crucial motivating factor for Stannis.

Dragonstone was not a reward, it is a tiny, uninhabitable shithole of a castle that yields few riches and fewer bannermen. Besides, Robert had no sons when he gave it as a 'gift', and someone had to rule those places anyway, so calling it generosity when his brothers were the obvious choice makes no sense. Cersei was close enough to Robert to know something like that. Robert didn't designate Stannis his heir, the law did that. That he is not appreciated, is a fact. Robert acknowledges he didn't love his brothers on his deathbed.

[bobbybuilderton]

Maybe they purposely made him really annoying before, so that when he saves the wall, it has more impact. I feel like they did that with Tyrion too. Made him more pure or whatever so that his post SoS attitude is more jarring.

Sounds like a lot of non-readers think Stannis is a bad guy or whatever. While he's not kind, and was involved in his brother's death, his intentions are not malevolent. And I think they're leading up to showing that he is just trying to do what he believes is his duty/right, although with a certain reluctance.

I don't particularly like Stannis either, but I think it's important that the audience understands his motives. The stuff with the Lord of Light is messing with their impressions of the character, imo.

[Toxspecific]

Omg Stannis wants to conquer Westeros because he thinks he's Azor Ahai? But I thought he wanted to conquer it because he was... I don't know, the true Baratheon heir maybe?

And I'd expected the ASOIAF fanbase to get over Renly's death already and would like all of them to remind themselves that Renly was going to kill Stannis on the morrow with his much larger usurping army.

[Anwar]

Dragonstone was not a reward, it is a tiny, uninhabitable shithole of a castle that yields few riches and fewer bannermen. Besides, Robert had no sons when he gave it as a 'gift', and someone had to rule those places anyway, so calling it generosity when his brothers were the obvious choice makes no sense. Cersei was close enough to Robert to know something like that. Robert didn't designate Stannis his heir, the law did that. That he is not appreciated, is a fact. Robert acknowledges he didn't love his brothers on his deathbed.

Robert never thought about the political realities of ruling, he mainly thought about the honors and prestige. To him, giving Stannis Dragonstone was his way of saying "Brother, you're my heir so I'm giving you the sign of that so everyone will know", and instead of making it clear that it was just a temporary gift he let Stannis stay Lord of Dragonstone and Renly Lord of Storm's End even after Joffrey and Tommen were born. He made both brothers, who usually wouldn't have gotten anything, Lords in their own right which is more than what most 2nd and 3rd sons ever get. He never considered Stannis would take it as an insult.

And seeing how rich some of the Dragonstone bannermen are, I don't think the Island is that lacking in wealth. Just not enough to finance a war.

Robert's relationship with Stannis is ironically similar to how Stannis felt about Renly. Did he like Stannis? Heck no. But he did love him. Just like Stannis admitted to loving Renly even though it's clear he didn't like him either.

[Toxspecific]

People saying Stannis fights his war because he thinks he's Azor Ahai: major facepalm. How can you blatantly ignore reality just because you don't like a character? Stannis believes himself the true heir to the Baratheon's Throne and that's why he fights the war, this is about as painfully obvious as Joffrey being a vicious *insert expletive here*, Ned being the honourable dude and other facts of the series like that. There's no way you can discredit his campaign by saying he fights it because he thinks he is Azor Ahai.

[wolverine]

People saying Stannis fights his war because he thinks he's Azor Ahai: major facepalm. How can you blatantly ignore reality just because you don't like a character? Stannis believes himself the true heir to the Baratheon's Throne and that's why he fights the war, this is about as painfully obvious as Joffrey being a vicious *insert expletive here*, Ned being the honourable dude and other facts of the series like that. There's no way you can discredit his campaign by saying he fights it because he thinks he is Azor Ahai.

Even on the show, Ned asserted Stannis' rightful claim to the throne.

I liked the scenes with Shireen and do feel that Stannis' character earned some redemption this episode. Now I forget, does Shireen have greyscale or just some other childhood scars?

EDIT: It was pretty weird how Selyse was trying to sway Stannis away from seeing Shireen.

[Toxspecific]

Even on the show, Ned asserted Stannis' rightful claim to the throne.

I liked the scenes with Shireen and do feel that Stannis' character earned some redemption this episode. Now I forget, does Shireen have greyscale or just some other childhood scars?

EDIT: It was pretty weird how Selyse was trying to sway Stannis away from seeing Shireen.

Shireen has greyscale.