[Book Spoilers] Any redemption for Stannis in this episode?

[Dove]

I didn't really grow that fond of Stannis until after they save the wall.

Same here. I held a grudge for Cressen's treatment a long time, haha, but his appearance in that battle was just too fantastic.

If you like Davos it's hard not to eventually like Stannis, since the dude's the #1.5 Team Stannis cheerleader. (probably slapfighting with Mel over #1) Let's face it, if he had a westeros.org account 99% of his posts would be in response to Stannis haters. He's good PR.

[Warhawk137]

"Best forget him"

The delivery of this line was brilliant. I'm really looking forward to what else the show has in store for Stannis.

Yeah - who are you trying to convince there, Stannis? :cool4:

[bobbybuilderton]

I've only just realized he tells his, like, 9 year old daughter she grew since the last time he saw her....but it's implied that that's been a while. What'd you expect her to do?! hahaha

[Toxspecific]

It doesn't? Melisandre had him convinced that it had to be him, or the realm couldn't be saved -- that saving the realm required the messiah-type figure to lead. To Stannis' credit, it never seemed to me that he wanted to be a messiah -- he didn't have any delusions of grandeur. It seemed more like he viewed it as a duty -- that if he really was AA, he had to go to the Wall and fight.

I'd just add that what the writers did with Stannis in this episode went a long way to bringing him back to the guy he was in the book. This seems to be the pattern, to some extent. Something happens with a character that we think "oh, they really don't get this", but then a subsequent episode helps correct at least some of that. I think they did a nice job of that with Cat -- her moment of weakness that she should have loved Jon now looks more like just a temporary emotional breakdown of book Cat, not a different character entirely.

I know it is annoying to some when they vary from the book, but to me, it's not as much changing the book as just having the camera on those same characters at different times, so you see different facets of their personality at different times.

That's ridiculous. Stannis said, he had a duty towards the realm as a King not as Azor Ahai.

Saving the realm isn't solely a messiah type figure's job. If it is then doesn't that make loads of former and current Night's Watch rangers messiah type figures? I hate it when people put 'thoughts' in Stannis' head; he doesn't think he went North to fulfill some prophecy.

If he went North because he thought he's Azor Ahai he wouldn't have left the Wall to attack House Bolton; he'd have stayed at the Wall and gone beyond looking for Others.

[Melonica Stormborn]

The beach scene is still poor on its own right, but these new scenes made his overall arc a bit better. I'm still not really sold on this portrayal because TV Stannis seems to be doing things that book Stannis wouldn't do (or would do differently, rather), however, it did show that he's breaking away from Mel's influence, which is for the better. Also, pairing Shireen with Davos is a good move - it will give Shireen something significant to do on the show and also promises a more impactful learning-to-read arc.

Regardless, Stephen Dillane is doing good work considering the material. Also, Mel and being AA is a means to an end, at least for book Stannis. He doesn't entirely believe Mel but he knows she's useful and he can't easily disregard the 1% chance that she's right.

[lunadangelo]

I loved episode 5, apart from the Stannis' scene with Selyse. Don't get me wrong, both actors did a good job with the script they were given. But it just doesn't make sense to me.

I think Cogman wanted to get across that Selyse is a zealous believer, hence forgiving Stannis sleeping with Mellisandre, but the whole thing just seems unrealistic to me. Not only did Mellisandre not actually give Stannis a son, she gave him a shadow baby, I don't care how fervent, I can't think of any women cheering her hubby for cheating on her.

Her zealousness could instead have been portrayed by her urging Stannis to burn the Onion Knight for betraying him and as a sacrifice to Rhollor. Shereen could have walked in on that conversation.

Which brings me to the other thing that does not make sense to me, which is that Selyse does not appear to care much for her daughter and the oddness of her saying '' you have come to see her!'' with an undertone of jealousy. Having lost 3 children, you would think that she would cherish her only surviving child, regardless of it's gender.

I do understand that they wanted to show a softer side of Stannis, but that could have easily been achieved by Shereen walking in and him turning around and giving her a big hug.

[KhalFrodo]

Just like the overall story in the show, Stannis is getting closer to his book form. His cold demeanor with Selyse and Shireen were classic Stannis and I believe he will have a talk with Davos in the next couple episodes to get back to where he needs to be. ALL HAIL STAN THE MAN!

[Associate Maester]

I've really enjoyed Stannis' arc this season. I separate book and show in my head and I can say I enjoy show Stannis more--as we see the humanity that we get glimpses of in the novels. I don't see why Stannis would need any sort of "redemption."

[Ravi Seaworth]

Same here. I held a grudge for Cressen's treatment a long time, haha, but his appearance in that battle was just too fantastic.

If you like Davos it's hard not to eventually like Stannis, since the dude's the #1.5 Team Stannis cheerleader. (probably slapfighting with Mel over #1) Let's face it, if he had a westeros.org account 99% of his posts would be in response to Stannis haters. He's good PR.

Faithful servant #1, please.

[flinn]

The Stannis in the show is not the Stannis I remember reading about. I don't care for him much in either.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

That's ridiculous. Stannis said, he had a duty towards the realm as a King not as Azor Ahai.

But then why does he have Melisandre at all? Why does he keep questioning her as to whether it all really is true? Why is he willing to kill Edric Storm? Clearly, he does attach some weight to the AA prophecy, and what it means for defeating evil. If he believes he is the rightful King, and that he is AA, then I don't see how it is possible to separate the two.

I hate it when people put 'thoughts' in Stannis' head; he doesn't think he went North to fulfill some prophecy.

You really shouldn't let yourself get so upset over other peoples' opinions.

If he went North because he thought he's Azor Ahai he wouldn't have left the Wall to attack House Bolton; he'd have stayed at the Wall and gone beyond looking for Others.

He is both. He needs to unite the realm as King, and then can face down the evil that is coming as AA. Again, if the AA stuff was irrelevant to him, then none of his actions with Melisandre (other than killing Renly) make any sense. The AA prophecy is part of what convinces him that the real threat to the realm is coming from beyond the Wall. So, as King, that's where he needs to go.

[Wunhopkuendo]

The beach scene is still poor on its own right, but these new scenes made his overall arc a bit better. I'm still not really sold on this portrayal because TV Stannis seems to be doing things that book Stannis wouldn't do (or would do differently, rather), however, it did show that he's breaking away from Mel's influence, which is for the better. Also, pairing Shireen with Davos is a good move - it will give Shireen something significant to do on the show and also promises a more impactful learning-to-read arc.

Regardless, Stephen Dillane is doing good work considering the material. Also, Mel and being AA is a means to an end, at least for book Stannis. He doesn't entirely believe Mel but he knows she's useful and he can't easily disregard the 1% chance that she's right.

I think the beach scene was perfect. As was the scene when Davos came in. What we see in the books from his march to Winterfell is that he is kind of a sniveling bitch when things aren't going his way. Everyone likes to think that Stannis is all hard core and what not, but he does do a lot of moping. If we could get a POV from him, he probably wouldn't be that much different than Jon, with his constant "poor me" musings.

[Mammothsbane]

But then why does he have Melisandre at all? Why does he keep questioning her as to whether it all really is true? Why is he willing to kill Edric Storm? Clearly, he does attach some weight to the AA prophecy, and what it means for defeating evil. If he believes he is the rightful King, and that he is AA, then I don't see how it is possible to separate the two.

Because Stannis is atheistic. Do you think the man who said

"I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men."

believes he is some messiah figure for a religion from another continent? Come on. He is using Mel as a means to an end. She is powerful, but to think he is some long promised messiah is so far out of character for Stannis it's laughable.

He is both. He needs to unite the realm as King, and then can face down the evil that is coming as AA. Again, if the AA stuff was irrelevant to him, then none of his actions with Melisandre (other than killing Renly) make any sense. The AA prophecy is part of what convinces him that the real threat to the realm is coming from beyond the Wall. So, as King, that's where he needs to go.

Going north to save the realm from WIldlings doesn't mean he thinks he is AA. Knowledge of a greater threat beyond the wall doesn't mean he thinks he is AA. If he thought he was AA, he wouldn't have marched on Winterfell. He'd have stayed at the Wall. He is trying to unite the realm, but that has nothing to do with thinking he is a messiah.

I think the beach scene was perfect. As was the scene when Davos came in. What we see in the books from his march to Winterfell is that he is kind of a sniveling bitch when things aren't going his way. Everyone likes to think that Stannis is all hard core and what not, but he does do a lot of moping. If we could get a POV from him, he probably wouldn't be that much different than Jon, with his constant "poor me" musings.

I don't recall any of this. He is a major try-hard in the books. Regardless of what's going on in his head, he is NEVER seen acting like he did on the beach. He's all teeth grinding and angry eyes. He is a hard ass.

[bobbybuilderton]

I don't think it's that he is so

"I am Azor Ahai reborn!" Because if even Jon can point out that he wasn't born at Dragonstone, don't you think Stannis would have realized that after a year or more? No, I think it's that he, like most followers of R'hllor, has seen things that make him feel compelled to believe that this is the real deal. He's seen Melisandre do some crazy shit and have legitimate visions and all this other stuff. So why would he not believe her when she says he's some ancient foretold hero? Stannis is not a religious man. The way he sees it, to not believe her would be stupid because she clearly has SOMETHING going on.

So as far as thinking he's AAR, I think Stannis is still pretty nonspiritual, but he does see that there is some legitimacy behind Melisandre's power. Even in the quote given above, he says "all I ever saw of either was made by men." He goes by what he sees. He sees Melisandre's power and so he goes along with it. But I doubt he has had this true inner conversion where he suddenly is like "I am destined to lead this fight!" He thinks that objectively speaking, she has been shown to have some truth behind her religion and so if she says he is AAR, then okay. He will do what is expected of him as a result of that title.

I think as soon as it's proven that she's wrong he will ditch that part of his campaign, showing that he never truly believed it in any spiritual sense. If he did, he would not abandon it so easily.

[Kernest]

Because Stannis is atheistic. Do you think the man who said

"I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King’s Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men."

believes he is some messiah figure for a religion from another continent? Come on. He is using Mel as a means to an end. She is powerful, but to think he is some long promised messiah is so far out of character for Stannis it's laughable.

Yeah, the reason I like book Stannis so much is because it's far more obvious that he's just using Mel, though I questioned and still question the choice of trying to become king by adopting a religion differing from the religion of the masses. I just never really understood his rationale behind that, but went with it since Mel does have some powers and he has the unquestioned loyalty of those who've decided to convert.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I think Cogman wanted to get across that Selyse is a zealous believer, hence forgiving Stannis sleeping with Mellisandre, but the whole thing just seems unrealistic to me. Not only did Mellisandre not actually give Stannis a son, she gave him a shadow baby, I don't care how fervent, I can't think of any women cheering her hubby for cheating on her.

There are plenty of religious cults that have included polygamy, sex with a "master" etc.. It doesn't seem all that implausible to me.

Her zealousness could instead have been portrayed by her urging Stannis to burn the Onion Knight for betraying him and as a sacrifice to Rhollor. Shereen could have walked in on that conversation.

Sure it could have, but I actually think this makes a more interesting dynamic for Stannis' character. He ends up in sort of the same place, but gets there a bit differently.

Which brings me to the other thing that does not make sense to me, which is that Selyse does not appear to care much for her daughter and the oddness of her saying '' you have come to see her!'' with an undertone of jealousy. Having lost 3 children, you would think that she would cherish her only surviving child, regardless of it's gender.

Well, part of the point is that Selyse is sort of nuts, so it doesn't have to make complete sense. But I think it's perfectly plausible that greyscale Shireen is just as much a symbol of her failure to bear him children as are the dead sons. Shireen is a living reminder of how flawed her womb is, and her inability to bear healthy children. So, even though it's not the books, it is consistent with her being a somewhat fanatical religious zealot.

I do understand that they wanted to show a softer side of Stannis, but that could have easily been achieved by Shereen walking in and him turning around and giving her a big hug.

Again, there are different ways to do that, but I think the way they did it worked pretty well.

[TheDarkOne]

Hopefully GRRM will write the song so Stannis can live on after ADOS. It would be awesome if they could do a spin off show of Stannis as the main character and him and Davos having adventures.

[Toxspecific]

Hopefully GRRM will write the song so Stannis can live on after ADOS. It would be awesome if they could do a spin off show of Stannis as the main character and him and Davos having adventures.

As a huge Stannis fan (massive understatement), Stannis isn't that sort of character really.

[lunadangelo]

There are plenty of religious cults that have included polygamy, sex with a "master" etc.. It doesn't seem all that implausible to me.

Sure it could have, but I actually think this makes a more interesting dynamic for Stannis' character. He ends up in sort of the same place, but gets there a bit differently.

Well, part of the point is that Selyse is sort of nuts, so it doesn't have to make complete sense. But I think it's perfectly plausible that greyscale Shireen is just as much a symbol of her failure to bear him children as are the dead sons. Shireen is a living reminder of how flawed her womb is, and her inability to bear healthy children. So, even though it's not the books, it is consistent with her being a somewhat fanatical religious zealot.

Again, there are different ways to do that, but I think the way they did it worked pretty well.

#

I agree, it just jarred with me, am sorry to say, especially since it makes Selyse wholly

unlikeable in my view.

[Fragon]

I don't think it's that he is so

"I am Azor Ahai reborn!" Because if even Jon can point out that he wasn't born at Dragonstone, don't you think Stannis would have realized that after a year or more? No, I think it's that he, like most followers of R'hllor, has seen things that make him feel compelled to believe that this is the real deal. He's seen Melisandre do some crazy shit and have legitimate visions and all this other stuff. So why would he not believe her when she says he's some ancient foretold hero? Stannis is not a religious man. The way he sees it, to not believe her would be stupid because she clearly has SOMETHING going on.

So as far as thinking he's AAR, I think Stannis is still pretty nonspiritual, but he does see that there is some legitimacy behind Melisandre's power. Even in the quote given above, he says "all I ever saw of either was made by men." He goes by what he sees. He sees Melisandre's power and so he goes along with it. But I doubt he has had this true inner conversion where he suddenly is like "I am destined to lead this fight!" He thinks that objectively speaking, she has been shown to have some truth behind her religion and so if she says he is AAR, then okay. He will do what is expected of him as a result of that title.

I think as soon as it's proven that she's wrong he will ditch that part of his campaign, showing that he never truly believed it in any spiritual sense. If he did, he would not abandon it so easily.

^this.

It seems to me that most Stannis critisizers fail to notice this : Stannis lived in a world without magic and suddenly this red woman comes and starts doing fucked up stuff, not believing what she says would be as stupid as fully believing what she says.

Stannis doubts her powers, this religion, etc, I think it's pretty clear in most of his quotes or actions. It would be foolish to completely ignore Melisandre, and as of aDwD with the Melisandre POV we know that a big part of her power is true, her visions and stuff but, she's very horrible at interpretation and used a great of simple tricks.

I mostly want that the TV show makes clear about some aspects of Stannis' personality, like this doubting side, and dutiful side have not been fully translated. I sometimes fear they'll never be, because some of the important quotes that humanizes and explains Stannis' motives are in Cressen and Davos I chapters of aCoK, and we've been quite past that, I wonder if writers would think of looking back there. There were some good quotes along the aSoS too, I hope they'll be delivered correctly after him releasing Davos, if they include Proudwing and Windproud stories, I'm sure Stannis' personality will appear more clearly to the viewers.