Why do so many people think, Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly?

[The Knight of Grey Garden]

Don't Ned always was interrupting saying he didn't knew Lyanna that well, each time Robert was saying Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna ?

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Don't Ned always was interrupting saying he didn't knew Lyanna that well, each time Robert was saying Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna ?

He said that to Robert in the crypts

but as usual, he didn't listen

[Ned's Epic Beard]

People

Because she didn't want to marry Robert.

Because she cried when Rhaegar sang.

Because Rhaegar doesn't seem as psychopath who would call a place where he repeatedly raped some woman "Tower of Joy."

Because Eddard didn't hate him.

And most of all because she was holding flowers he'd given her when she died.

These are the main reasons people give but they are so empty.

Because she didn't want to marry Robert. How does this make her like Rheagar?

Because she cried when Rhaegar sang. She was probably crying on the lyrics of the song, which is common is westeros.

Because Rhaegar doesn't seem as psychopath who would call a place where he repeatedly raped some woman "Tower of Joy." He was obsessed with prophecy to the point of madness. He may be a psycho

Because Eddard didn't hate him. Ned didn't show the hate towards lot of people who were his enemy. Does this make them lynanna's lover also? This only means that they weren't relevant to the story.

And most of all because she was holding flowers he'd given her when she died. She was holding ned's hand but even if she were holding flowers so what? that doesn't mean anything.

We need a solid proof from the person who has witnessed the events and who is unbiased towards targ love

[Moët]

Selmy is not dead, he was just wounded

I agree with the rest of your post

Yes, thanks, have corrected. :D

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Yes, thanks, have corrected. :D

:cheers:

[Jacob Feybrad]

Well, I see most of the points, although the whole kingsguard thing seems very controversial. My thoughts on this matter:

Rhaegar didn't know, that he would fail at the Trident. If he had suceeded, King's Landing would've never been sacked. His heir was save as far as he was concerned. And his heir was Aegon. Not a Jon in Lyannas belly, bastard or not.

[LightSpectra]

If Rhaegar abducted and raped Eddard's sister, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have remembered him as respectfully as he does.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

If Rhaegar abducted and raped Eddard's sister, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have remembered him as respectfully as he does.

If Lyanna went willingly, then I'm pretty sure the she would have left a letter to her family OR save Brandon and Rickards life OR contact her brother just ONE time in two years! If she is anything like arya then wouldn't hide like a coward.

[raegal_targaryen]

i think varys did this so he could put rhaegar on the throne....just a hunch really.if rhaegar had won, he would have all the lords he needed and the reason too cast his father off the throne.

[LightSpectra]

If Lyanna went willingly, then I'm pretty sure the she would have left a letter to her family OR save Brandon and Rickards life OR contact her brother just ONE time in two years! If she is anything like arya then wouldn't hide like a coward.

Lyanna had the impulsiveness of a wolf, remember. Eddard sees the same trait in Arya, hence why he is more receptive to her desires (since he knew what happened the last time a woman in his family was going to be forced into a political marriage).

i think varys did this so he could put rhaegar on the throne....just a hunch really.if rhaegar had won, he would have all the lords he needed and the reason too cast his father off the throne.

Varys was constantly warning Aerys about the possibility of Rhaegar usurping him. (That's actually why Aerys left the Red Keep to go to the Tourney at Harrenhall, for the first time after the Defiance at Duskendale.)

[Ice Turtle]

People...

How does this make her like Rheagar? - It doesn't but it gives he a motive to run from homel

She was probably crying on the lyrics of the song, which is common is westeros. - Her being similar to Arya and her interaction with Benjen shows that it is not typical for Lyanna.

He was obsessed with prophecy to the point of madness. He may be a psycho We don't - we see nothing pointing towards possibility that he was sadist like Ramsay and many clues that he wasn't. \not all types of madness are same.

Ned didn't show the hate towards lot of people who were his enemy. Does this make them lynanna's lover also? This only means that they weren't relevant to the story. - Seriously? This is an argument? All the other people in the story did not supposedly rape Lyanna.

She was holding ned's hand but even if she were holding flowers so what? that doesn't mean anything. -

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. All right parts of flowers, but they were almost surely from Rhaegar and that matters.

[Moët]

If Lyanna went willingly, then I'm pretty sure the she would have left a letter to her family OR save Brandon and Rickards life OR contact her brother just ONE time in two years! If she is anything like arya then wouldn't hide like a coward.

If she'd have left a note, they'd have come after her even faster, with more men. She had no idea Brandon would go to KL to demand the life of Rhaegar, or what Areys would demand after that. Brandon was on his way to Riverrun to marry Cat. Why would he go threaten the heir to the Seven Kingdoms?

Lyanna is the Juliet of ASOIAF (although Juliet dies just short of her 14th birthday.) She's an hormonally imbalanced teenage female who is insane in love over the hottest dude on the continent. How many 14 year olds of any time period act with the judgement and honor of an adult, especially in a world where a female might not experience true joy ever in their lives, and expect to be traded to the highest bidder?

[Corvo Attano]

Lyanna had the impulsiveness of a wolf, remember. Eddard sees the same trait in Arya, hence why he is more receptive to her desires (since he knew the last time a woman in his family was going to be forced into a political marriage).

Varys was constantly warning Aerys about the possibility of Rhaegar usurping him. (That's actually why Aerys left the Red Keep to go to the Tourney at Harrenhall, for the first time after the Defiance at Duskendale.)

Unless Lyanna was a total lackwit, she would have informed someone (her Father or brothers) that she did it out of choice, in order to prevent a war.

Anyway, wolves are highly cautious animals.

[Ygrain]

I had the polygamy quote fished:

June 06, 2001

Targaryen Polygamy

First off all I want to thank you for the one of the best fantasy novels I ever read. Then I would like to ask one question: In the SOS Jora Mormont told to Dany that Aegon The Dragon had two wives and she could take two husbands. The question is if there were any other precedents of polygamy among Targaryens besides Aegon the First.

Yes, there were.

Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, I seem to recall, though not all of them were simultaneous. He beheaded a few of them who failed to give him heirs, a test that all of them ultimately failed.

There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be).

People

These are the main reasons people give but they are so empty.

Because she didn't want to marry Robert. How does this make her like Rheagar?

Because she cried when Rhaegar sang. She was probably crying on the lyrics of the song, which is common is westeros.

Because Rhaegar doesn't seem as psychopath who would call a place where he repeatedly raped some woman "Tower of Joy." He was obsessed with prophecy to the point of madness. He may be a psycho We don't

Because Eddard didn't hate him. Ned didn't show the hate towards lot of people who were his enemy. Does this make them lynanna's lover also? This only means that they weren't relevant to the story.

And most of all because she was holding flowers he'd given her when she died. She was holding ned's hand but even if she were holding flowers so what? that doesn't mean anything.

We need a solid proof from the person who has witnessed the events and who is unbiased towards targ love

Calling the place where you hold and rape your victim "Tower of Joy" is cynicism which perhaps even Ramsay wouldn't find in himself. We have multiple PoVs from people who knew Rhaegar reflecting neither cynicism nor psychopathy, so your point how "we don't know" is moot.

Ned making a comparison between Lyanna's betrothed and her rapist is totally out of place, and making that comparison in favour of the rapist is both outrageous and out of character for Ned.

Assigning Lyanna a part of blame for her demise (wolf blood led her to an early grave) is inconsistent with a rape victim depiction, as well as again out of character for Ned.

Last time I heard, Lyanna wasn't one-handed, so holding Ned's hand and flowers was quite humanly possible for her. In Ned's recollection (memories, not the fever dream) he mentions dry rose petals falling out of her hand. The roses were so dear to her that she held onto them on her deathbed - hardly plausible if they were from her rapist

The fact that Ned didn't hate Rhaegar is pretty telling if you compare it to his feelings towards the Lannisters for the murders of innocent children who were not even related to Ned. Surely the guy who abused his innocent and deeply loved sister would deserve at least some hard feelings.

If Arthur Dayne assisted in kidnapping and raping Lyanna, Ned would hardly remember him as the finest knight that ever lived.

Targ love, I know nothing about, I prefer textual analysis. Biased Targ hate is no use, either.

If Lyanna went willingly, then I'm pretty sure the she would have left a letter to her family OR save Brandon and Rickards life OR contact her brother just ONE time in two years! If she is anything like arya then wouldn't hide like a coward.

And if you didn't constantly ignore arguments, or at least read the posts before you, your argumentation would definitely benefit. Shall I reiterate what was said in the previous thread, or just a couple posts above? Time, distance, delay in information travel, need for secrecy, success in secrecy.

You don't know whether she left any letter to Rickard or not, zero information on this - either way, Rickard is not calling banners, and Brandon is not calling for her release. The same for not contacting Ned - you just don't know, and once the Rebellion started, it would not have changed a thing because Ned and RObert were fighting for their lives, not for Lyanna. Plus, Ned knew where to go, and the KG knew that he was coming, which may hint at some communication.

As for hiding in the tower, ask yourself what Aerys would do if Lyanna fell into his hands.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Lyanna had the impulsiveness of a wolf, remember. Eddard sees the same trait in Arya, hence why he is more receptive to her desires (since he knew the last time a woman in his family was going to be forced into a political marriage).

Varys was constantly warning Aerys about the possibility of Rhaegar usurping him. (That's actually why Aerys left the Red Keep to go to the Tourney at Harrenhall, for the first time after the Defiance at Duskendale.)

If we learn anything about lyanna from arya's nature, it is that she loved her family dearly. If she went willing then would have been horrified and came running to save her brothers and father (see how arya tries to save rob and cat before RW? She was held against her will btw!). Also supposedly she ran and marriage was evaded, why didn't she contact anyone in two year then? seems like a classic kidnap case.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

so what the devil were 3 knights of the KG there? especially Lord Commander Gerold Hightower

if they were supposed to guard the king, they would be at Dragonstone and not in Dorne

explain it

Just to guard a woman (not from the royal family) and a bastard?

If they were supposed to guard the King, they would be in King's Landing protecting the actual king, Aerys, instead of hanging out in Dorne at the command of Prince Rhaegar. There must then have been some other superceding command that kept them away from the king.

At the end, I think they stayed to die rather than surrender and seek pardon from the usurper. They had utterly failed their king and their honor would not allow them to serve another.

I don't think the notion of being king, as far as KG vows go, is something that is strictly inherited. Else why would KG choose different sides in the Targaeryan civil wars? Viserys was an exile, and though he might have styled himself as king, for all intents and purposes he was not the king of the seven kingdoms.

Further, according to ned's recollection, the KG are not protecting Jon, a baby, or anyone from anything. Ned takes no hostile action, levels no threats, or in any way suggests he wants to hurt anyone. So what exactly are the KG protecting a notional king from?

Also, if Ned was there, and spoke to Lyanna before she died, AND learned that she was married to Rhaegar, why does Ned still think of Jon as being a bastard in aGoT?

[Moët]

Unless Lyanna was a total lackwit, she would have informed someone (her Father or brothers) that she did it out of choice, in order to prevent a war.

Because her Magic Light Of The 7 Ball told her what her actions would cause?

Because 14 year olds always plan ahead, think past their own hormones, and use amazing judgement?

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Also, if Ned was there, and spoke to Lyanna before she died, AND learned that she was married to Rhaegar, why does Ned still think of Jon as being a bastard in aGoT?

I'm in an agreement with you. Can you post a quote where ned thinks him as bastard? that would put jon legit targ theories to rest.

[kiddkouture]

If we learn anything about lyanna from arya's nature, it is that she loved her family dearly. If she went willing then would have been horrified and came running to save her brothers and father (see how arya tries to save rob and cat before RW? She was held against her will btw!). Also supposedly she ran and marriage was evaded, why didn't she contact anyone in two year then? seems like a classic kidnap case.

I'm trying to understand where you're getting this two year timespan from. Robert's Rebellion definitely took much less time than that. If R+L=J, we're looking at a year, a year and two months or so...tops. Also, the Tower of Joy is in the Dornish marches. If Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar there, there's no way she would've been able to do anything for her father or brother in King's Landing. Especially if by the time she learned of it, she was with child. They are many leagues apart and I'm sure the couple would've felt a need for secrecy.

[Moët]

If we learn anything about lyanna from arya's nature, it is that she loved her family dearly. If she went willing then would have been horrified and came running to save her brothers and father (see how arya tries to save rob and cat before RW? She was held against her will btw!). Also supposedly she ran and marriage was evaded, why didn't she contact anyone in two year then? seems like a classic kidnap case.

I guess she just forgot to charge her cell phone. Please tell me how she was supposed to communicate from a secret, abandoned location (not on the Raven Network) while maintaining everyone, including her own, safety?