Rhaegar's Changes ...

[Ser Uncle P]

Was re reading Jamie's chapters in AFFC,I was struck by his memories of Rhaegar's "iron tones" just before the Trident.

"When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made..." (p 133 AFFC)

On first read it looks like Rhaegar's last words to Jaime were about a peaceful coup d'etat after dealing with Cousin Robert, ie removing Aerys. However, what if he was talking about changes in succession, as well? Changes as in disinheriting Aegon and Rhaenys in favour of Targs born from his second marriage?

Most posters here agree that the presence of Kingsguard at the TOJ proves Lyanna was married to Rhaegar, and the child was not a bastard, I'd go further and argue that the presence of the L.C of the KG, ie Hightower and its best knight and Rhaegar's best bud (Dayne) proves that Rhaegar had, in his own mind "set aside" Elia of Dorne and her kids in terms of inheritance, but Rhaegar was keeping this under wraps as he needed Dornish spears to help him win at the Trident first.

[stu1987]

I think all of that is totally plausible.

The only thing I would be unsure about is setting aside Elia. If Rhaegar were to have done that, Dorne would have been like WTF? And the possibility of another rebellion or backlash on the back of Robert's Rebellion would have been a bad idea, even for Rhaegar.

Definitely agree with him confronting/removing Aerys. So many characters have a very high opinion of Rhaegar and he comes across as having been quite chivalrous and reasonable to an extent. Can't believe he would sit by and let Aerys totally destroy the Targs' repuation.

[TalalOfDorne]

Setting Elia aside would be a bad move. It might just be about deposing Aerys. And lets say he did finish Robert, will he really be able to just take Lyanna back to the capital? Unless as a hostage, I dont think so. The North, Vale, and Riverlands will just stay in rebellion. And without Dornes support it wont be long before the crowns forces are exhausted.

[stu1987]

Saying that, didn't most people know that he had kidnapped/loved Lyanna? So the fact that he shunned Elia was common knowledge. I suppose doing it officially would be more of an insult.

[Ser Uncle P]

Setting Elia aside would be a bad move. It might just be about deposing Aerys. And lets say he did finish Robert, will he really be able to just take Lyanna back to the capital? Unless as a hostage, I dont think so. The North, Vale, and Riverlands will just stay in rebellion. And without Dornes support it wont be long before the crowns forces are exhausted.

Maybe the aside to Jaime about the "council" is relevant here, if he defeated the rebels and killed Bob and Ned, he might offer the surviving Starks and Baratheons generous terms (ie seats on the small council), thus replacing the manpower lost if Dorne took offence at the slight on Elia.

He surely can't have planned to hide Lyanna with the 3 top KG at the TOJ indefinitely, though the Targ madness gene was probably showing at this stage...

[Djinn]

With Bob dead, never surrender Stannis is Lord. Vale is the more defensible kingdom of all, followed by North and Dorne. Deaths of Brandon, Rickard and Eddard pretty much guarantee permanent rebellion in the North, the Vale is going to be a tough nut to crack, and shunning Elia will guarantee Dorne rebellion.

[TalalOfDorne]

Maybe the aside to Jaime about the "council" is relevant here, if he defeated the rebels and killed Bob and Ned, he might offer the surviving Starks and Baratheons generous terms (ie seats on the small council), thus replacing the manpower lost if Dorne took offence at the slight on Elia.

He surely can't have planned to hide Lyanna with the 3 top KG at the TOJ indefinitely, though the Targ madness gene was probably showing at this stage...

You cant just kill three Starks and expect forgiveness. I dont think the North would accept any terms after Brandon and Rickard died. And of course Rhaegar took Roberts love, so the Baratheons wont settle for anything as well. And killing Ned and Robert just makes things worse. The rebel lords (except maybe the Tullys) would still be in rebellion.

[Mladen]

I doubt Rhaegar planned to remove Aegon from succession line, because that would be just an intro for another rebellion. I believe that whatever Rhaegar meant was too late and coming from wrong mouth. He cooked that dish, and it was his to taste it. Perhaps he was ready to influence his father, but I doubt he was ready to create such strife between his own sons.

And OP, you made small mistake, it`s Rhaenys - Rhaegar`s daughter, not Rhaella - Rhaegar`s mother

[Gurkhal]

You cant just kill three Starks and expect forgiveness. I dont think the North would accept any terms after Brandon and Rickard died. And of course Rhaegar took Roberts love, so the Baratheons wont settle for anything as well. And killing Ned and Robert just makes things worse. The rebel lords (except maybe the Tullys) would still be in rebellion.

While you are partly right in that things won't be all dandy, a major defeat for the rebels with captured nobels and the threat of an extinction of House Stark could well be enough to force them to kneel before the Iron Throne again. They wouldn't be happy, of course, as losers in war seldome are. But I do think that Rhaegar could make them kneel if he had won. Provided he won a victory large enough, that is.

[Thendel]

I really don't think Rhaegar planned on naming anyone but Aegon his heir. Remember, Lyanna hasn't given birth to any child yet, and for what Rhaegar knows, his child by her could be a girl - a Visenya, even - so naming that child heir over his eldest son would be risky business.

Moreover, what would Rhaegar have against Aegon as heir? The HotU scene not only states that Rhaegar saw Aegon as the PtwP, but as a king as well ("What better name for a king?"). The whole running off with Lyanna thing was done in part for love, and in part for producing the third head of the dragon, not an alternative heir to the throne.

[Gingerchu]

Setting Elia aside would be a bad move. It might just be about deposing Aerys. And lets say he did finish Robert, will he really be able to just take Lyanna back to the capital? Unless as a hostage, I dont think so. The North, Vale, and Riverlands will just stay in rebellion. And without Dornes support it wont be long before the crowns forces are exhausted.

Unless Lyanna herself said it was her choice

[Ser Uncle P]

I really don't think Rhaegar planned on naming anyone but Aegon his heir. Remember, Lyanna hasn't given birth to any child yet, and for what Rhaegar knows, his child by her could be a girl - a Visenya, even - so naming that child heir over his eldest son would be risky business.

Moreover, what would Rhaegar have against Aegon as heir? The HotU scene not only states that Rhaegar saw Aegon as the PtwP, but as a king as well ("What better name for a king?"). The whole running off with Lyanna thing was done in part for love, and in part for producing the third head of the dragon, not an alternative heir to the throne.

Rhaegar despatched his father's top 2 KG (Dayne and Hightower) to his new family, Don't you think this speaks volumes as to his priorities?

[Ser Uncle P]

I doubt Rhaegar planned to remove Aegon from succession line, because that would be just an intro for another rebellion. I believe that whatever Rhaegar meant was too late and coming from wrong mouth. He cooked that dish, and it was his to taste it. Perhaps he was ready to influence his father, but I doubt he was ready to create such strife between his own sons.

And OP, you made small mistake, it`s Rhaenys - Rhaegar`s daughter, not Rhaella - Rhaegar`s mother

Thanks it's edited. I don't think he planned politics or family life in any proper sense, tbh! The respect that the likes of Jamie and Kevan show for him must be based on earlier achievements before Targ madness started to show around the the Tourney of Harrenhal

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Rhaegar despatched his father's top 2 KG (Dayne and Hightower) to his new family, Don't you think this speaks volumes as to his priorities?

It speaks volumes of the lack of character people like to attribute to Rhaegar

[Jacob Feybrad]

Well, Rhaegar was a huge idiot anyways.

I mean, seriously, he was a reasonable young man (not a teenager like Lyanna) and heir to the throne. Why didn't he tell anyone?! I don't think, this rebellion would have been necessary, if he just had more patience.

[King of Winters]

I just think Rhaegar was going to move his father off the throne so that he could treaty with the rebels. After all it was Aerys who could have no caused the war by sending for Ned's head, he could have just held Rickon and Brandon hostage and not kill them. Rhaegar was going to get his father to step down as king and rule form then on.

[Malgarroth]

It speaks volumes of the lack of character people like to attribute to Rhaegar

Elia had the walls of King's Landing and all of its guards to defend her. I don't think Rhaegar expected KL to fall or that he'd lose at the Trident, especially with all the prophecy shit he was going through. Whereas Lyanna was relatively unprotected in the ToJ.

[King of Winters]

Elia had the walls of King's Landing and all of its guards to defend her. I don't think Rhaegar expected KL to fall or that he'd lose at the Trident, especially with all the prophecy shit he was going through. Whereas Lyanna was relatively unprotected in the ToJ.

Except she had three of the greatest knight in the Realm protecting her.

[Malgarroth]

Except she had three of the greatest knight in the Realm protecting her.

If the forces garrisoned at KL went toe-to-toe with THREE men (any three men you like) I know where I'd put my money.

If Dayne, Whent and Hightower had been in KL they might have taken down Gregor and Lorch but they would've been overcome by Tywin's forces eventually.

[Thendel]

Rhaegar despatched his father's top 2 KG (Dayne and Hightower) to his new family, Don't you think this speaks volumes as to his priorities?

I don't believe it's a valid comparison, as Elia, Lyanna and their respective children are in different positions: In Lyanna's case, secrecy is of the utmost priority, making three elite knights infinitely more suitable to protect her than a garrison of less experienced men. With Elia, there's nothing to hide, and Aerys is keeping them hostage anyways, which narrows down what Rhaegar could realistically do with the few couple of men that were personally loyal to him. Attempting a coup d'etat against Aerys in the middle of a rebellion just so he could attain complete control of the royalist forces would have been idiotic, to say the least.

Also bear in mind that Rhaegar believed he could win the war for the Targaeryens, and that this could only happen if he defeated the rebels at the Trident. If he lost the Trident, everyone at King's Landing would be at the rebels' mercy anyway, and three elite knights wouldn't make much of a difference. At the ToJ, however, they could make all the difference in protecting his second wife and her unborn child, and they actually very nearly defeated the one rebel lord who discovered their location.