What did Tyrion do in ADWD that was so bad?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Committing unrepetent rape. Fantasizing about killing and raping his sister. Degrading and just being a little shit to other powerless people, like Penny. Having one giant woe-is-me pity party, which, if you look back, has always been a weakness of his. He falls back on, "People only dislike me because I'm a dwarf," and that stops him from any legitimate self-examination, because he'll always have that as an excuse.

More so, I despise him now because he's essentially let people like Cersei win — he's given in and become the revenge-driven monster they always accused him of being.

[Cas Stark]

I don't think most whores would lie to send a man to his death for a crime he didn't commit. Just because you sleep with men for money does not mean you're completely without morals.

Shae was completely without morals and Tyrion should have known this, she demonstrated it with her absolute lack of compassion toward Lollys. Tyrion deluded himself about her and then when he was confronted with the truth that had been staring him in the face the whole time...he threw a hissy fit and strangled her.

[mrunderhill]

I'm pretty sure that Tywin cared for Gerion quite a bit more than he cared for Tyrion. If Tyrion had defied his wish to marry Sansa and play the dutiful Lannister son, and instead ran off to the free cities with his whore, I guarantee you that Tywin would not be financing it. Kevan was Tywin's toadie as long as Tywin was alive, so I don't think he'd have dared send Tyrion a dime. Jaime might have though, provided they got away clean.

He tells Tyrion he is his son. That protecting the Lannister name thing gives Tywin leeway to go above and beyond the custom for his family. There is no way Tywin would let his son live a beggar's life either due to real affection or because Tyrion was still a Lannister.

[Thendel]

The list is long, unfortunately:

• Threatening a slave of Illyrio's just for the kick of it
  
• Wallowing in self-pity, to the point of contemplating suicide
  
• Having sex with a sex slave who clearly didn't enjoy it
  
• Relishing in inflating the infamous reputation as a king- and kinslayer to whom nothing is sacred (where I would argue that he does not, in fact, want to rape Cersei and kill Jaime)
  

But I would also remind you folks that the "good Tyrion" begins to resurface after the middle of the book, when he meets two persons he has no reason to look out for or help:

• He feels sorry for Penny, he protects her, he rejects her advances gently, and he listens to her side of things. He even brings her along when he goes over to the Second Sons, despite her being a liability at this point.
  
• He saves Jorah by making sure he is bought by Yezzan no Qaggaz, thereby making sure that he'll be a part of a future escape attempt.
  

All in all, Tyrion becomes much less likeable, to the point of being downright detestable, but I would argue that he might be in for a rebound towards a more moral viewpoint. Does this excuse the things he does? Hardly, but they deserve to be seen in the light that he was hurting badly, and most of his actions were a way of expressing that pain. Which, to be honest, is a very, very human thing to do.

[Andrea Darling]

He tells Tyrion he is his son. That protecting the Lannister name thing gives Tywin leeway to go above and beyond the custom for his family. There is no way Tywin would let his son live a beggar's life either due to real affection or because Tyrion was still a Lannister.

I sincerely doubt it. We'll never know, of course, because Tywin got a bolt in the belly, but I see no evidence that this would be so. Tyrion playing the Lannister role in Westeros is one thing. Tyrion running off across the narrow sea with a whore is something else entirely. His being a Lannister makes it even worse, in that case. He's running the family name through the mud. Why would Tywin pay for that?

[Andrea Darling]

Shae was completely without morals and Tyrion should have known this, she demonstrated it with her absolute lack of compassion toward Lollys. Tyrion deluded himself about her and then when he was confronted with the truth that had been staring him in the face the whole time...he threw a hissy fit and strangled her.

The truth he strangled her for was that she betrayed him to his likely death. That's not something that Tyrion should have expected simply because she was a whore. He cared for her, and that was his own stupid fault, but it doesn't absolve what she did, so I don't blame Tyrion for polishing her off on the way to sort out Tywin.

[DogLover]

Yeah but prostitutes in Essos are and you have to judge Tyrion based on the moral framework of his own society not ours. Imagine if in 500 years it is decided that having sex with a woman under the influence of alcohol is rape. Suddenly I am a rapist based on the moral standards of their society - is that fair?

He is being judged based on the moral framework of his own society. Slavery is immoral and illegal in Westeros, which is why Jorah is in exile--for his involvement in the slave trade. And in Essos, Daenerys is trying to put an end to slavery (albeit only when it benefits her). The rape of the sex slave was carefully written to illustrate how low Tyrion has sunk. He notes her scarred back and the dead look in her eyes yet has sex with her not only once, but twice.

Also, I only need ask myself what would Ned or Jon do in a similar situation to draw a moral line in the sand.

[Cas Stark]

The truth he strangled her for was that she betrayed him to his likely death. That's not something that Tyrion should have expected simply because she was a whore. He cared for her, and that was his own stupid fault, but it doesn't absolve what she did, so I don't blame Tyrion for polishing her off on the way to sort out Tywin.

Why not? She has no one to protect her now that he is in prison, if she hadn't turned on him, why would she not assume/believe she too would have been accused of involvement? She is a no one in King's Landing who was the mistress of the man accused of killing the king. Her best and possibly only option for staying alive and free would be to say what people want to hear: that Tyrion is guilty. That would be her only ticket to safety.

I mean, duh, Tyrion knows how these things work. Blaming her for what she did is stupid because for her to do otherwise would have put herself at a huge risk of being put in prison or killed, and why would she do that?

[Andrea Darling]

He is being judged based on the moral framework of his own society. Slavery is immoral and illegal in Westeros, which is why Jorah is in exile--for his involvement in the slave trade. And in Essos, Daenerys is trying to put an end to slavery (albeit only when it benefits her). The rape of the sex slave was carefully written to illustrate how low Tyrion has sunk. He notes her scarred back and the dead look in her eyes yet has sex with her not only once, but twice.

Also, I only need ask myself what would Ned or Jon do in a similar situation to draw a moral line in the sand.

:agree:

[mrunderhill]

Shae was completely without morals and Tyrion should have known this, she demonstrated it with her absolute lack of compassion toward Lollys. Tyrion deluded himself about her and then when he was confronted with the truth that had been staring him in the face the whole time...he threw a hissy fit and strangled her.

True, but she does tell Tyrion she would be loyal to him if she made him his lady.

"The Hand's whore, you mean?" She looked at him with those big bold eyes of hers. "Though I would be your lady, m'lord. I'd dress in all the beautiful things you gave me, in satin and samite and cloth-of-gold, and I'd wear your jewels and hold your hand and sit by you at feasts. I could give you sons, I know I could . . . and I vow I'd never shame you."

My love for you shames me enough. "A sweet dream, Shae. Now put it aside, I beg you. It can never be."

Shae may be a gold digger, but she offered Tyrion loyalty in return for being made his lady. Tyrion tells her that can never be and basically confirms she will never be more than a whore to him.

"I will," she promised. "You are my lion, aren't you? My giant of Lannister?"

"I am," he said. "And you're - "

" - your whore." She laid a finger to his lips. "I know. I'd be your lady, but I never can. Else you'd take me to the feast. It doesn't matter. I like being a whore for you, Tyrion. Just keep me, my lion, and keep me safe."

She has come to realise that and accepts her role as his whore. Whores are not loyal to you.

Shae had been asking about some jewels Tyrion had given her, and certain promises Cersei might have made, a manse in the city and a knight to marry her.

Shae is a gold digger, but she suggest she would have been loyal to Tyrion had he married her. Hard to know how serious she was being, but it is Tyrion that puts her firmly down as his whore. Interesting that instead of more money from Cersei she wants a house and respectable husband. Shae seems to want a stable, rich family life.

[Andrea Darling]

Why not? She has no one to protect her now that he is in prison, if she hadn't turned on him, why would she not assume/believe she too would have been accused of involvement? She is a no one in King's Landing who was the mistress of the man accused of killing the king. Her best and possibly only option for staying alive and free would be to say what people want to hear: that Tyrion is guilty. That would be her only ticket to safety.

I mean, duh, Tyrion knows how these things work. Blaming her for what she did is stupid because for her to do otherwise would have put herself at a huge risk of being put in prison or killed, and why would she do that?

She chose to do what she did, to send an innocent man to his death, even if she did it to save her own skin, which we don't actually know. She certainly didn't look under duress when Tyrion found her, so I don't blame him for not giving her a pass. However, at least your saying she did it because she had no choice is better than your saying she did it because she was a whore.

[Andrea Darling]

Shae is a gold digger, but she suggest she would have been loyal to Tyrion had he married her. Hard to know how serious she was being, but it is Tyrion that puts her firmly down as his whore. Interesting that instead of more money from Cersei she wants a house and respectable husband. Shae seems to want a stable, rich family life.

And all she had to do is send one innocent man to his grave.

[Andrea Darling]

Shae is a gold digger, but she suggest she would have been loyal to Tyrion had he married her. Hard to know how serious she was being, but it is Tyrion that puts her firmly down as his whore. Interesting that instead of more money from Cersei she wants a house and respectable husband. Shae seems to want a stable, rich family life.

Also, Tyrion knows what happened to the last lowborn woman he married. He put her down to protect her more than for any other reason.

[Cas Stark]

She chose to do what she did, to send an innocent man to his death, even if she did it to save her own skin, which we don't actually know. She certainly didn't look under duress when Tyrion found her, so I don't blame him for not giving her a pass. However, at least your saying she did it because she had no choice is better than your saying she did it because she was a whore.

She didn't do it "because" she was a whore, but Tyrion's expectation that she would behave as if she was his wife/lover/mistress instead of a random woman he was paying to have sex with him, and thus would have no loyalty to him, is what was stupid. They had a business relationship and he expected her to act as if they had a meaningful emotional one. He blames her for his own delusions.

She behaved in an entirely predictable and pragmatic manner given the situation. She is still a POS, but she didn't deserve to be murdered for doing something that he should have known she would inevitably do given the situation. He flew into an emotion driven rage and murdered her, I'm not okay with that, a lot of people are.

[Ran]

To the OP,

I believe a lot of readers expected the post-ASoS Tyrion to really be more of the same of what they had before: the clever, witty, self-depreceating, ambitious dwarf. What they got instead was an utter emotional wreck, who had had his beliefs about the past destroyed, who had broken his relationship with the one family member he loved, who had murdered the father who he hated but also who he craved acceptance from, and who had lost everything, including the woman he wed and the woman he thought he loved. Of course he was going to be a bitter mess, and we get to see real ugliness come out of him during this time, as he's self-destructive and nihilistic.

It's only after he tastes death -- when he nearly drowns -- that he realizes that he doesn't want oblivion and he starts to climb out of that hole. The Tyrion at the end of ADwD is probably more of what people wanted. He's still messed up, he's still quite dark, but the self-destructive behavior has come to an end and he feels as he has a purpose beyond his own death.

[The Pain Yak]

No, but wanting to see fear in one's sexual partners is disturbing and unhealthy at any time.

Except she wasn't actually his sexual partner, since he tells Illyrio he doesn't want her. He wasn't trying to scare her because he gets off on it sexually, he was trying to scare her because at that point he is a bitter misanthropic shell of a human being whose memory of betrayal by the last woman who 'warmed his bed' is still too sharp.

[Victor227]

And all she had to do is send one innocent man to his grave.

You're acting like her testimony sealed the case. Tyrion was declared guilty at the feast. Everyone who testified against him in the trial was either seeking to profit from it in influence, or avoid Cersei's wrath. Tyrion was no longer able to -protect- her. He was no longer able to -support- her. He was a dead man walking.

"Just keep me, my lion, and keep me safe."

Tyrion could no longer keep her safe, or do anything for her, and we don't know if she was discovered or came forward willingly. Remember, they scoured through all of Sansa's maids, and everyone attached to Tyrion as well, and they did it with a lot more thoroughness and authority than they did prior.

She betrayed him because there was no longer anything between them, and could never be. She took advantage of the situation to ensure that she walked away without the animosity of someone like Tywin or Cersei (who would kill her without a second thought, and easily, for little more purpose than to prove a point), and ensure her own future.

Tyrion didn't kill her for that. He understood that as was shown when he revealed he had no animosity for Bron taking Cersei's bride and lands in exchange for abandoning him.

“My lady Shae,” Tyrion said softly. “All the time I sat in the black cell waiting to die, I

kept remembering how beautiful you were. In silk or roughspun or nothing at all . . . ”

“M’lord will be back soon. You should go, or . . . did you come to take me away?”

“Did you ever like it?” He cupped her cheek, remembering all the times he had done this

before. All the times he’d slid his hands around her waist, squeezed her small firm

breasts, stroked her short dark hair, touched her lips, her cheeks, her ears. All the times

he had opened her with a finger to probe her secret sweetness and make her moan. “Did

you ever like my touch?”

“More than anything,” she said, “my giant of Lannister.”

That was the worst thing you could have said, sweetling

Tyrion slid a hand under his father’s chain, and twisted. The links tightened, digging into

her neck. “For hands of gold are always cold, but a woman’s hands are warm,” he said.

He gave cold hands another twist as the warm ones beat away his tears.

He killed her because her affections for him were false. He killed her for being a whore, because he had let himself be tricked, just as he -instructed- her to trick him.

[FuriousGeorge]

He is being judged based on the moral framework of his own society. Slavery is immoral and illegal in Westeros, which is why Jorah is in exile--for his involvement in the slave trade. And in Essos, Daenerys is trying to put an end to slavery (albeit only when it benefits her). The rape of the sex slave was carefully written to illustrate how low Tyrion has sunk. He notes her scarred back and the dead look in her eyes yet has sex with her not only once, but twice.

Also, I only need ask myself what would Ned or Jon do in a similar situation to draw a moral line in the sand.

I think Tyrion's attitude towards women is in line with attitudes in both Essos and Westeros. Do you think the prostitutes are in Westeros are much better off than in Essos, given that every aspect of their lives is controlled by the people who own them. Do you think Littlefinger does not own prostitutes and think of them as objects in the same way the Volantenes do? Does it stop being rape when prostitutes pretend to enjoy it?

[Andrea Darling]

She didn't do it "because" she was a whore, but Tyrion's expectation that she would behave as if she was his wife/lover/mistress instead of a random woman he was paying to have sex with him, and thus would have no loyalty to him, is what was stupid. They had a business relationship and he expected her to act as if they had a meaningful emotional one. He blames her for his own delusions.

She behaved in an entirely predictable and pragmatic manner given the situation. She is still a POS, but she didn't deserve to be murdered for doing something that he should have known she would inevitably do given the situation. He flew into an emotion driven rage and murdered her, I'm not okay with that, a lot of people are.

He blames her for betraying him in court to his likely death. He has every right to find that a betrayal of epic proportions, even if it was someone he should have known he only had a business relationship with. The fact that he was stupid enough to love her just makes it worse for him. I have no problem understanding why he did what he did, and why he doesn't regret doing it.

[Andrea Darling]

To the OP,

I believe a lot of readers expected the post-ASoS Tyrion to really be more of the same of what they had before: the clever, witty, self-depreceating, ambitious dwarf. What they got instead was an utter emotional wreck, who had had his beliefs about the past destroyed, who had broken his relationship with the one family member he loved, who had murdered the father who he hated but also who he craved acceptance from, and who had lost everything, including the woman he wed and the woman he thought he loved. Of course he was going to be a bitter mess, and we get to see real ugliness come out of him during this time, as he's self-destructive and nihilistic.

It's only after he tastes death -- when he nearly drowns -- that he realizes that he doesn't want oblivion and he starts to climb out of that hole. The Tyrion at the end of ADwD is probably more of what people wanted. He's still messed up, he's still quite dark, but the self-destructive behavior has come to an end and he feels as he has a purpose beyond his own death.

:agree: 100%