[TV SPOILERS] Jon, Ygritte & Orel Love Triangle

[bobbybuilderton]

The only thing I thought was weird about it is that he's actually hitting on her not long after he'd tried to send her careening down the Wall. I wish they'd have had her say something to him about that!

Except they did. Not her specifically, but the whole point during the Jon-Orell confrontation was that the wildlings do what needs to be done to survive, and Jon doesn't understand that. "I cut her loose too. Do you see us talking (sulking?) about it? That's because she understands the way things are. . . .People work together when it suits em, they're loyal when it suits em, love each other when it suits em, and they kill each other when it suits em. She knows it, you don't."

His whole argument (consistent throughout the episode) is that they may find each other attractive but Jon will never be able to understand her the way a wildling can. He wants that wildling to be him specifically, but his bigger issue is that she be with one of the free folk in general.

People below the wall with their battles fought in straight lines and high value of honor will never understand that it was a matter of survival, not something personal. It was personal with Jon probably, but not her.

[Moët]

I'd just like to point out it's a rivalry between Jon and Orell, not a Love Triangle. Love Triangles are when all three people love each other, i.e. Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere.

Orell (probably) and Jon (definitely) love Ygritte, and both hate each other. Ygritte loves Jon, and doesn't want Orell to even touch her... (because he's an icky warg?)

I know it's semantics, but words are important, their meanings are important, and pretending words mean something they don't, is bad.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I'd just like to point out it's a rivalry between Jon and Orell, not a Love Triangle. Love Triangles are when all three people love each other, i.e. Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere.

Orell (probably) and Jon (definitely) love Ygritte, and both hate each other. Ygritte loves Jon, and doesn't want Orell to even touch her... (because he's an icky warg?)

I know it's semantics, but words are important, their meanings are important, and pretending words mean something they don't, is bad.

Very true. But on the warg thing, it has nothing to do with it really. Orell is just icky in general, and Ygritte is pretty much used to wargs.

I didn't have a problem with this love rivalry thing because it did 2 things. First it let wildlings interact and reinforce the idea that not all of them are stupid enough to think Jon straight up turned his cloak day 1. And second, it set up a bit of doubt and foreshadowing for the viewer regarding Jon's nature and loyalties from a non-Jon perspective, which is nice when you don't get internal monologue.

[bobbybuilderton]

"Used to" is not the same as "willing to date."

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

"Used to" is not the same as "willing to date."

What evidence do we have that wildlings find wargs less desirable?

[Moët]

What evidence do we have that wildlings find wargs less desirable?

The books:

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry4443037

That post talks about warging being frowned upon.

[ugashep]

Orell, first rule of dating, from Samuel L. Jackson: if you try to kill a bitch, you decrease your chances of ever being with that bitch. I will have to say that its ballsy of you to try one episode after trying to see that she took the quick way down off the wall.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

The books:

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry4443037

That post talks about warging being frowned upon.

Oh I know, but I'm talking about the show. No one's mentioned warginess being icky and Ygritte seems pretty nonchalant about it, as does everyone else. Although oddly enough Jon seems to pick at Orell for being a warg even though he's a fucking warg himself lol. I just don't see why it's so hard to believe that Orell is just an ass and even if he wasn't does that mean Ygritte should instantly fall in love with him?

[Moët]

Oh I know, but I'm talking about the show. No one's mentioned warginess being icky and Ygritte seems pretty nonchalant about it, as does everyone else. Although oddly enough Jon seems to pick at Orell for being a warg even though he's a fucking warg himself lol. I just don't see why it's so hard to believe that Orell is just an ass and even if he wasn't does that mean Ygritte should instantly fall in love with him?

I agree. However, just because something isn't mentioned in the show yet, doesn't mean it's never going to be introduced. She didn't just tell Orell she wasn't interested, she recoiled from him, and told him not to touch her. Perhaps there's more than just not interested... or not. :dunno:

Orell, first rule of dating, from Samuel L. Jackson: if you try to kill a bitch, you decrease your chances of ever being with that bitch. I will have to say that its ballsy of you to try one episode after trying to see that she took the quick way down off the wall.

HAAAAA! Indeed! :D

[bobbybuilderton]

Oh I know, but I'm talking about the show. No one's mentioned warginess being icky and Ygritte seems pretty nonchalant about it, as does everyone else. Although oddly enough Jon seems to pick at Orell for being a warg even though he's a fucking warg himself lol. I just don't see why it's so hard to believe that Orell is just an ass and even if he wasn't does that mean Ygritte should instantly fall in love with him?

Yeah because it's not like Osha has called what Jojen is teaching Bran "black magic" in this very same episode or anything.

And it's not hard to believe that he's an ass. I just don't think he was referencing the fact that he's unpleasant apart from the warg-ness.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I agree. However, just because something isn't mentioned in the show yet, doesn't mean it's never going to be introduced. She didn't just tell Orell she wasn't interested, she recoiled from him, and told him not to touch her. Perhaps there's more than just not interested... or not. :dunno:

Seems like a pretty normal reaction from a strong woman shaking off the advances of a suddenly insistent man she has no interest in to me :) Orell doesn't seem to think that'll hurt his chances and she had plenty of opportunity to deny being "His own" due to not being a filthy warg!

Anyways this debate is probably pointless. Let's just hope we've seen the last of Theon for at least 2 episodes!

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Yeah because it's not like Osha has called what Jojen is teaching Bran "black magic" in this very same episode or anything.

And it's not hard to believe that he's an ass. I just don't think he was referencing the fact that he's unpleasant apart from the warg-ness.

Jojen sees the future or past in his dreams and appeared out of nowhere to "coach" this little kid on how to basically do shit in his dreams. Very different from warging considering Osha knows that Bran is a warg and isn't disgusted by it. She gets all antsy about his dreams, not at all with his bond with Summer.

[bobbybuilderton]

Jojen sees the future or past in his dreams and appeared out of nowhere to "coach" this little kid on how to basically do shit in his dreams. Very different from warging considering Osha knows that Bran is a warg and isn't disgusted by it. She gets all antsy about his dreams, not at all with his bond with Summer.

Does she know he's a warg though? I don't remember...The only things I remember are when Bran and Rickon dream about Ned in the crypts, her talking about the old gods answering in the godswood, and saying what the comet meant. I don't remember her ever finding out that he sees through his wolf. All she knows is that he has odd dreams. I could be mistaken though...

[Moët]

Does she know he's a warg though? I don't remember...The only things I remember are when Bran and Rickon dream about Ned in the crypts, her talking about the old gods answering in the godswood, and saying what the comet meant. I don't remember her ever finding out that he sees through his wolf. All she knows is that he has odd dreams. I could be mistaken though...

That's a very good point. Osha asks Bran about his dreams all the time, and I remember him talking to her about the sea coming to Winterfell. But I only remember him telling Luwin about his wolf dreams.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Does she know he's a warg though? I don't remember...The only things I remember are when Bran and Rickon dream about Ned in the crypts, her talking about the old gods answering in the godswood, and saying what the comet meant. I don't remember her ever finding out that he sees through his wolf. All she knows is that he has odd dreams. I could be mistaken though...

I would think a wildling would realize the two Stark boys whose wolves are basically attached to them, but the only time there's definitive evidence, now that I think about it, is when he tells Summer to go after Rickon which she doesn't say anything about but then again that doesn't mean anything.

[Mulled Wino]

I would think a wildling would realize the two Stark boys whose wolves are basically attached to them, but the only time there's definitive evidence, now that I think about it, is when he tells Summer to go after Rickon which she doesn't say anything about but then again that doesn't mean anything.

exactly..... the kids have goddam direwolves following them around. Doesnt get more obvious than that.

[lostinwesteros]

All the direwolves have been soooo neglected in Game of Thrones. It's annoying because I absolutely do love this show but there are some bits that just piss me off so much because it could be SO much better without shit like talisa, and gratuitous nudity and with more time on direwolves amongst other things

:agree: We're getting dragons every episode, so I don't understand why we can't have direwolves. The only time we've seen one who was 'direwolf' size was when Grey Wind was beside Robb when he paid a visit to hostage Jaime. Since then we've seen a brief shot of Summer and Shaggy Dog, but I thought that they were pretty obviously just shots of dogs at that point. So, where are the 'full-grown' direwolves? And Ghost was always either with Jon or in the near vicinity until Jon sent him away right before climbing the wall. So, what gives?

Back to the OP, I don't think it's a love triangle, but I did expect Ygritte to react with more of a 'get away from me, you sleeze', which we didn't see. I've been waiting for the scene where Summer saves Jon, and Ygritte shoots him with an arrow. Maybe this thing with Orell will lead to that?

[Moët]

:agree: We're getting dragons every episode, so I don't understand why we can't have direwolves. The only time we've seen one who was 'direwolf' size was when Grey Wind was beside Robb when he paid a visit to hostage Jaime. Since then we've seen a brief shot of Summer and Shaggy Dog, but I thought that they were pretty obviously just shots of dogs at that point. So, where are the 'full-grown' direwolves? And Ghost was always either with Jon or in the near vicinity until Jon sent him away right before climbing the wall. So, what gives?

Back to the OP, I don't think it's a love triangle, but I did expect Ygritte to react with more of a 'get away from me, you sleeze', which we didn't see. I've been waiting for the scene where Summer saves Jon, and Ygritte shoots him with an arrow. Maybe this thing with Orell will lead to that?

The lack of Grey Wind and Ghost is most likely due to $$$.

As for Ygritte, and 'get away from me you sleeze...', I think that was pretty clear when she physically recoiled from Orell, and hissed, "Don't touch me!"

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

:agree: We're getting dragons every episode, so I don't understand why we can't have direwolves. The only time we've seen one who was 'direwolf' size was when Grey Wind was beside Robb when he paid a visit to hostage Jaime. Since then we've seen a brief shot of Summer and Shaggy Dog, but I thought that they were pretty obviously just shots of dogs at that point. So, where are the 'full-grown' direwolves? And Ghost was always either with Jon or in the near vicinity until Jon sent him away right before climbing the wall. So, what gives?

Back to the OP, I don't think it's a love triangle, but I did expect Ygritte to react with more of a 'get away from me, you sleeze', which we didn't see. I've been waiting for the scene where Summer saves Jon, and Ygritte shoots him with an arrow. Maybe this thing with Orell will lead to that?

Summer was fucking massive when Jojen sees him for the first time, and Shaggydog behind him had a head of equal size. David and Dan explained that they take real wolves and scale them up 50% because that's the limit to where they start looking totally fake. I just keep supporting the shows so that they'll increasingly be budgeted to be able to make the direwolves as absolutely awesome as the dragons are (Look at Drogon, unreal that he isn't actually a real beast) so unfortunately if you really want sentient beings to be a part of the show it's going to cost a LOT of money.

[yushkevsh]

What do you guys make of the "you won't love him once you realize what he is" line?

At first I thought it was just "he's still a crow" but she already knows that. Maybe Orell can sense Jon is a warg and, even though we haven't seen it, Jon makes a reference to having dreams where he's Ghost?

I said elsewhere that it could just be a bluff to get Ygritte to be suspicious and thus, less trusting of Jon. Possibly later on Orell can use that seed of doubt to twist something that happens or outright set Jon up. For example if a Wildling dies or they run into the Watch prematurely, Orell can blame it on Jon.