What will happen in Jon's first few POVs?

[Steve Moss II]

Seriously, though, am I the only person who thinks that the prose was perfectly clear in indicating that he was dead? How did you interpret the last sentence?

Shock?

Loss of Consciousness?

Warging?

I don't know what GRRM intends. But I doubt Jon is dead.

The lack of indication of pain means nothing. I'm a former Marine. A friend of mine was shot twice, two separate events. The first time it hurt like hell. He cried, screamed, etc. The second time, he didn't feel a thing, according to him. He just watched the clouds float by until he woke up in a medical unit. Then the pain hit.

And Ceasar's death is interesting. 23 stab wounds, only one of which was considered mortal. And his death was not instant. He bleed out. If he was not isolated in the Senate, surrounded by enemies, he might have survived his wounds. Instead he covered his head with his toga and died without a word ("Et tu, Brute" is a myth).

Modern stabbings follow that same trend. Many people are stabbed many times and survive. Killing with a knife is neither easy nor instant.

And unlike Ceasar and many other victims of modern knife attacks, Jon is not isolated. He is surrounded by friends who are numerically superior to the NW and are definitely numerically superior to the conspirators which by necessity would only be a handful of the NW. And keep in mind that the text is fairly clear that while the builders and stewards lien toward Bowen, the rangers (the hardcore fighters) support Jon.

Aside from the loyal NW, the Wildlings, Selyse's men, and Mel would all act to help Jon.

So in summary, unlike Ceasar, I see Jon surviving. Though I think he'll be a much darker and much more cynical man for the experience. Finally he'll move on Aemon's advice in truth, "kill the boy, let the man be born". Which is in itself a bit of foreshadowing I think.

[aryagonnakill]

Shock?

Loss of Consciousness?

Warging?

I don't know what GRRM intends. But I doubt Jon is dead.

The lack of indication of pain means nothing. I'm a former Marine. A friend of mine was shot twice, two separate events. The first time it hurt like hell. He cried, screamed, etc. The second time, he didn't feel a thing, according to him. He just watched the clouds float by until he woke up in a medical unit. Then the pain hit.

And Ceasar's death is interesting. 23 stab wounds, only one of which was considered mortal. And his death was not instant. He bleed out. If he was not isolated in the Senate, surrounded by enemies, he might have survived his wounds. Instead he covered his head with his toga and died without a word ("Et tu, Brute" is a myth).

Modern stabbings follow that same trend. Many people are stabbed many times and survive. Killing with a knife is neither easy nor instant.

And unlike Ceasar and many other victims of modern knife attacks, Jon is not isolated. He is surrounded by friends who are numerically superior to the NW and are definitely numerically superior to the conspirators which by necessity would only be a handful of the NW. And keep in mind that the text is fairly clear that while the builders and stewards lien toward Bowen, the rangers (the hardcore fighters) support Jon.

Aside from the loyal NW, the Wildlings, Selyse's men, and Mel would all act to help Jon.

So in summary, unlike Ceasar, I see Jon surviving. Though I think he'll be a much darker and much more cynical man for the experience. Finally he'll move on Aemon's advice in truth, "kill the boy, let the man be born". Which is in itself a bit of foreshadowing I think.

I like this post, but if you were a marine, i am not I do not know you're training, I imagine you know that a trained person can kill very easily with a knife. I think you are at least familiar with the kidney stab from behind, then up into the brain stem. And the one thing that really is inescapable here is that a knife in between the shoulder blades has almost a 100% chance of death. If the blade went in horizontally, thats it his spine was separated and Jon is dead. If it went in vertically, and didn't go in perfectly in the middle of his back but was still in between his shoulder blades it got a lung, sucks to be you Jon.

[aryagonnakill]

I like this post, but if you were a marine, i am not I do not know you're training, I imagine you know that a trained person can kill very easily with a knife. I think you are at least familiar with the kidney stab from behind then up into the brain stem. And the one thing that really is inescapable here is that a knife in between the shoulder blades has almost a 100% chance of death. If the blade went in horizontally, thats it his spine was separated and Jon is dead. If it went in vertically, and didn't go in perfectly in the middle of his back but was still in between his shoulder blades it got a lung, sucks to be you Jon.

idk why this happened and unfortunately I can't delete this.

[Steve Moss II]

I'm not sure of Jon's wounds. GRRM left a lot to be desired when it came to describing them, except for the first. By intent, no doubt.

The first is a superficial cut to the neck. The text is explict about this. So while its bleeding, it not serious.

The second is the serious strike (just like Ceasar's). He's punched in the belly with a dagger, which stays there when Bowen backs off. It is Jon who removes it and casts it aside. This wound is "smoking".

The third is a dagger thrust between the shoulder blades. We know nothing more other than the force of the blow sent Jon face first into the snow.

The fourth was never felt and so we can't judge.

Strike 1 can be dismissed as being non-critical. Strike 4 needs to be set aside as we have no idea how feeble (or not) it may have been. Strike 2 and 3 are the serious strikes, though the extent of his injuries as a result are pure speculation.

In mitigation of these wounds being "instant" kills, we have four factors:

1. Jon is armed and armored. He's wearing a cloak, furs, chainmail, leathers and padded gambeson. While they don't make him knife proof, they provide a measure of protection as they create resistance to penetration, which means his wounds would not be as deep as they otherwise might have been.

2. Jon is on his feet and/or moving. This means that as the force strikes him, he's automatically moving away from it. He's not tied flat to the earth and therefore absorbing 100% of the impact. This is demonstrated when the third blow knocks him down. The forward motion of his body takes away some of the violence of the strike.

3. He's being attacked by stewards, not the rangers (the equivalent of the elite commandos). For example, Jon takes Wick's knife from him between the first and second strike, despite being ambushed.

4. The whole event seems a spur of the moment action. I have no doubt Bowen has been plotting something, but the Shieldhall speech spurred him to action. So this is not a meticulously planned event (unlike Ceasar) were more than a dozen assailants fall upon him when he was isolated.

All told, Jon has a much better chance of surviving than Ceasar did. Though I think his second wound may very well be the worst of the four.

Jon may be dead. He may only be seriously injured. We lack data, so what happens from this point forward is pure speculation. That said, I think there is plenty of forshadowing pointing toward Jon's ultimate survival, in one form or another.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Knife one: Scratch on a neck, not worth noting.

Knife two: A knife in the belly. It could have hit organs, but is not fatal if care is given. He pulls it out somewhat easily, leading me to believe it did not hit anything vital.

Knife three: A knife in the back. As it is nto clear where in the back, and it could not have severed the spine as he still felt the cold at the fourth knife.

Knife four: Was not felt, nor do we know where it hit, or if it hit at all.

We can discount knifes one and four as they are not serious or we do not have enough information.

Knife two seems to be the worst, but with armor and the fact Jon pulled it out, I don't believe it is too deadly, as well as the fact that Bowen is not a strong man. His nickname is the Pomegranate. It can't have been equal to Ygritte's arrow wound.

Knife three is to the back. It could have hit anywhere. If it hit the spine, he would instantly be dead. If it missed the spine, it is less serious that knife two. If hit the shoulder blades, it is not serious at all.

I come to the conclusion that Jon is either still alive from these wounds, or he died from the third knife. However, Jon must be somehow "alive" as in warging into Ghost before his spirit left as he felt cold, and not how Varamyr felt when he died. I am more inclined to believe it is the second option, and this is Azor Ahai's resurrection time.

[vivatforx]

Sadly, I think we might have seen our last Jon POV chapter. Not that I believe for a second he is dead like Ned. I think Jon's AA rebirth moment (and is there any doubt that it's him at this point? R'hllor sends Mel visions of Jon, not Dany; Jon has the red sword dream right before his "death"; his "death" fulfilled the salt and smoke requirement; and GRRM brought the false AA, Stannis, and Jon, the real AA, together because he likes to give us truths that way) brings him one step closing to being king. And, as we know, kings don't get POVs, only queens.

Also, the only other former POV character to be brought back from the dead, the honorable Lady UnCat Stoneheart, lost her POV status (as far as we know), so precedent exists.

I hope this isn't true, Jon has been my favorite POV since day one, but it seems likely to me.

[Popcorn Sutton]

Seriously, though, am I the only person who thinks that the prose was perfectly clear in indicating that he was dead? How did you interpret the last sentence?

For you 2 that say Jon has to be dead and there is no other scenario, how many times did Brienne obviously "die"?

[Rashtibram]

For you 2 that say Jon has to be dead and there is no other scenario, how many times did Brienne obviously "die"?

Never. She was in the process of dying when she was hanged, and the chapter ended with her screaming a word.. we don't know what that word was or what the consequences of it were, so her fate was a cliffhanger.

Personally, I think I just automatically read the last line in Jon's chapter as indicating death, and never questioned that assumption until about a year later when I made an account on the forum, whereupon I had long since accepted that he was dead. Now, everyone seems to be taking it for granted that he's not dead, and I'm just confused as to why more people didn't interpret the last line the way I did.

[Slingingstones]

1. Wick Whittlestick: Throat "graze".

2. Bowen Marsh: "Belly" stab. ADWD states Jon found the hilt to remove same. Unknown length of blade or shape, i.e., Arkansas Toothpick or Highland Dirk style. Presume it was a narrow blade due to penetration to hilt having to pass through chainmail, clothing, and leather.

3. Unknown assailant: "Between shoulder blades. The spacing between the scapula bones is approximately the width of a human skull, which could cover the entire length of the thoracic vertebrae (T-1 to T12). Close observation reveals that the human spinal column is entirely protected from rear trauma by interlocking bone on each adjoining vertebrae*, such as Dragon scale, so to speak. The spinal column is more susceptible to damage from the interior side. Again the weapon of choice is unknown and the damage causing possible death could occur if the blow was struck between ribs.

*Note: The English Long Bows used at Angincort, France are reported to have up to 180# pull. @200yds. could penetrate armour. I'm skeptical that a knife/dagger thrust could have severed Jon's spinal cord; but, could have mortally wounded him through the ribs if administered in the right location; however...

4. Unknown assailant: Unknown wound...Jon did not "feel" the knife. "Only the cold." This means he is either alive, face down in the snow or has warged into Ghost.

[Ours is the Roar]

He probably might get revived by Melisandre. After that, he might be like Beric Dondarrion and join some other brotherhood other than Night's Watch... probably Stannis'.

I have a ridiculous idea that Jon Snow might join Stannis Baratheon and then Stannis somehow makes Jon his heir... (since it's rather unlikely Shireen will take the Iron Throne). After Jon is made as Stannis' heir, Stannis dies some death...(probably in the Siege at Winterfell). Apparently there was a in these forums someone deciphered the House of the Undying's message saying that Daenerys will marry Jon someday. So therefore the two main competitors (both rebels) for the throne (Jon succeeded Stannis and Dany) join forces and then they take the Iron Throne. Happy ever after, since some people here say Stannis and Dany marry. But it'll be unfortunate for the Lannisters, Tyrells, and Boltons... but the Lannisters are already in shambles so expect Cersei to die and the Lannisters will bend the knee and cower to Casterly Rock. And as for the Tyrells... expect them to be loyal... and the Boltons ought to be wiped out and gone sooner or later.

So to simplify my thought.... Stannis chooses Jon Snow as his heir over Shireen, and then Stannis dies some conventional death. Jon takes his spot and marries to Daenerys Targaryen and they fight for the Iron Throne and win....

[KingHodorTargaryen]

He probably might get revived by Melisandre. After that, he might be like Beric Dondarrion and join some other brotherhood other than Night's Watch... probably Stannis'.

I have a ridiculous idea that Jon Snow might join Stannis Baratheon and then Stannis somehow makes Jon his heir... (since it's rather unlikely Shireen will take the Iron Throne). After Jon is made as Stannis' heir, Stannis dies some death...(probably in the Siege at Winterfell). Apparently there was a in these forums someone deciphered the House of the Undying's message saying that Daenerys will marry Jon someday. So therefore the two main competitors (both rebels) for the throne (Jon succeeded Stannis and Dany) join forces and then they take the Iron Throne. Happy ever after, since some people here say Stannis and Dany marry. But it'll be unfortunate for the Lannisters, Tyrells, and Boltons... but the Lannisters are already in shambles so expect Cersei to die and the Lannisters will bend the knee and cower to Casterly Rock. And as for the Tyrells... expect them to be loyal... and the Boltons ought to be wiped out and gone sooner or later.

So to simplify my thought.... Stannis chooses Jon Snow as his heir over Shireen, and then Stannis dies some conventional death. Jon takes his spot and marries to Daenerys Targaryen and they fight for the Iron Throne and win....

Stannis has an iron view of succession and would not name Jon his heir. The northern lords after the will of Robb Stark and the return of Rickon would be less squeamish naming him King of the North though in face of an army of undead.

[Ded As Ned]

Stannis has an iron view of succession and would not name Jon his heir. The northern lords after the will of Robb Stark and the return of Rickon would be less squeamish naming him King of the North though in face of an army of undead.

I don't think the will of Robb stark will play any significant part in the story... secondly, it seems obvious enough that Manderly & co. want to put Rickon on the throne, with Wyman as his reagent until Rickon comes of age, regardless of what Stannis thinks or does.

Thirdly, Jon has already turned down legitimacy and Winterfell from Stannis... what makes Stannis think Jon will all of a sudden accept being heir to Westeros?

All of which is moot, because Jon is dead.

Edit: Well, the part about Rickon being KotN isn't moot... the parts about Jon... moot.

[vivatforx]

I don't think the will of Robb stark will play any significant part in the story... secondly, it seems obvious enough that Manderly & co. want to put Rickon on the throne, with Wyman as his reagent until Rickon comes of age, regardless of what Stannis thinks or does.

Thirdly, Jon has already turned down legitimacy and Winterfell from Stannis... what makes Stannis think Jon will all of a sudden accept being heir to Westeros?

All of which is moot, because Jon is dead.

It's nice to see other people being reasonable about this.

[Ded As Ned]

It's nice to see other people being reasonable about this.

Indeed. We seem to be growing in number, strangely.

[Rashtibram]

Indeed. We seem to be growing in number, strangely.

Jon's-death-believers unite!!!!!

[vivatforx]

Sure, Jon's dead. Do we all forget that Bran saw him laying dead (or dying and so close that he appears dead) way back in his coma dream? Now, if you think he stays dead, I have a wall up north I'd like to sell you.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I don't think the will of Robb stark will play any significant part in the story... secondly, it seems obvious enough that Manderly & co. want to put Rickon on the throne, with Wyman as his reagent until Rickon comes of age, regardless of what Stannis thinks or does.

Thirdly, Jon has already turned down legitimacy and Winterfell from Stannis... what makes Stannis think Jon will all of a sudden accept being heir to Westeros?

All of which is moot, because Jon is dead.

Edit: Well, the part about Rickon being KotN isn't moot... the parts about Jon... moot.

1. What you "think" does not hold relevance unless supported by text. Why would GRRM put the will in if it wasn't going to be important?

2. Rickon is a child. He does nto know how to lead an army, play politics, or anything useful. He is on play to be lord of Winterfell. Do you really think the Northern Lords would crown Rickon King in the North and ignore Robb's Will, and a willing Stark who has the ability to fight the undead horde comign to fuck everything up?

3. Jon turned down Winterfell from Stannis because he didn't want to betray his vows and he didn't see himself as a Stark. Once his true parentage is revealed (Rhaegar and Lyanna) he realizes he does have a claim, and a little brother to protect. Also, he gave up on the Night's Watch the moment they stabbed him in the back. The vows state "Until my watch has ended." This means death. Yes, Jon died. He's going to be brought back. So much points to this theory. GRRM states all the undead characters are leading up to something. Mel sees Jon go from man to wolf back to man. This means he likely warged into Ghost as he was being stabbed, keeping his spirit intact, unlike Beric or UnCat. The trauma of the knives matches Bran's growing into warging powers. Stannis is not frigging Azor Ahai. He has not tempered Lightbringer. He has not sacrificed anything. And he sure as hell isn't going to be defeating the Others and gaining the throne. So who else is Azor Ahai? Dany has the same point of not being Azor Ahai as Stannis. Neither of them have been REBORN amidst salt and smoke. Mel asks for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and she sees Snow. There is a capital in the book. So unless that is the world's biggest error in the worst space Jon is Azor Ahai. He killed a wight (sword tempered in water), he killed Janos Slynt (lion's heart), and the thing he loves most is the only thing left. He is the only one who has started down this path. Also, GRRM states he was suprised Jon's parentage has been found so quickly. If it wasn't important, why not just say it was Wylla and be done with it? By this, it is almost impossible his parentage is not Rhaegar and Lyanna. So unless GRRM wanted that to be a completely useless plot point to outsmart a large percent of the community, Jon can't be dead. There's Mel and Bran who can easily bring him back. Don't forget Dany's vision of a blue flower growing through a chink of ice. Jon is likely dead. What evidence can anyone provide to me to prove he STAYS dead?

[Ours is the Roar]

1. What you "think" does not hold relevance unless supported by text. Why would GRRM put the will in if it wasn't going to be important?

2. Rickon is a child. He does nto know how to lead an army, play politics, or anything useful. He is on play to be lord of Winterfell. Do you really think the Northern Lords would crown Rickon King in the North and ignore Robb's Will, and a willing Stark who has the ability to fight the undead horde comign to fuck everything up?

3. Jon turned down Winterfell from Stannis because he didn't want to betray his vows and he didn't see himself as a Stark. Once his true parentage is revealed (Rhaegar and Lyanna) he realizes he does have a claim, and a little brother to protect. Also, he gave up on the Night's Watch the moment they stabbed him in the back. The vows state "Until my watch has ended." This means death. Yes, Jon died. He's going to be brought back. So much points to this theory. GRRM states all the undead characters are leading up to something. Mel sees Jon go from man to wolf back to man. This means he likely warged into Ghost as he was being stabbed, keeping his spirit intact, unlike Beric or UnCat. The trauma of the knives matches Bran's growing into warging powers. Stannis is not frigging Azor Ahai. He has not tempered Lightbringer. He has not sacrificed anything. And he sure as hell isn't going to be defeating the Others and gaining the throne. So who else is Azor Ahai? Dany has the same point of not being Azor Ahai as Stannis. Neither of them have been REBORN amidst salt and smoke. Mel asks for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and she sees Snow. There is a capital in the book. So unless that is the world's biggest error in the worst space Jon is Azor Ahai. He killed a wight (sword tempered in water), he killed Janos Slynt (lion's heart), and the thing he loves most is the only thing left. He is the only one who has started down this path. Also, GRRM states he was suprised Jon's parentage has been found so quickly. If it wasn't important, why not just say it was Wylla and be done with it? By this, it is almost impossible his parentage is not Rhaegar and Lyanna. So unless GRRM wanted that to be a completely useless plot point to outsmart a large percent of the community, Jon can't be dead. There's Mel and Bran who can easily bring him back. Don't forget Dany's vision of a blue flower growing through a chink of ice. Jon is likely dead. What evidence can anyone provide to me to prove he STAYS dead?

Jon Snow is dead. If Melisandre resurrects Jon, he will start anew. He may not go back to the Nights watch... He might have other plans. All of Jon's vows and oaths will be wiped clean, just like Beric Dondarrion. With nobody aware of Jon's prescence, he can go do whatever he wants. He can join Stannis. Stannis may have a stubborn view on justice, but not legitimacy. Stannis is not Ned Stark. Remember, Staanis OFFERED his brother Renly to become is heir if Stannis won the throne with Renly. Stannis Baratheon can do the same with Jon Snow. Stannis can make Jon Snow his heir now that Jon is no longer a member of the Watch, so therefore my theory might work.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Jon Snow is dead. If Melisandre resurrects Jon, he will start anew. He may not go back to the Nights watch... He might have other plans. All of Jon's vows and oaths will be wiped clean, just like Beric Dondarrion. With nobody aware of Jon's prescence, he can go do whatever he wants. He can join Stannis. Stannis may have a stubborn view on justice, but not legitimacy. Stannis is not Ned Stark. Remember, Staanis OFFERED his brother Renly to become is heir if Stannis won the throne with Renly. Stannis Baratheon can do the same with Jon Snow. Stannis can make Jon Snow his heir now that Jon is no longer a member of the Watch, so therefore my theory might work.

I agree with everything until you got to Stannis. Which is more likely? Northern lords declare Jon King in the North following Robb's will and the face of the Others coming and because Rickon, who Davos rescues, accepts and encourages it. Or Jon and the Northern lords meekly following a king they do not know, do not like, to the south to lose more men while a horde of undead descends upon them. There is a large difference between offering a brother to be heir and offering a Targaryen he helped displace to be his heir. Stannis would be more likely to kill Jon than make him his heir.

[Ours is the Roar]

What if Jon Snow was not of Lyanna's and Rhaegars?