Raven ownership?

[mindchap]

Bran and Bloodraven refer to the ravens around their cave there, not to the 99.99% elsewhere.

How else can Bloodraven see exactly what is happening on a boat out to sea? If not by bird?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How else can Bloodraven see exactly what is happening on a boat out to sea? If not by bird?

When and where does he do that?

[mindchap]

When and where does he do that?

Reread that chapter and then keep reading the Cat chapter afterward, he sees exactly what happens, all the way down to Ser Rodrik hurling over the rail, and he can see the storm they are sailing into that they can't see. Cat describes that exact same thing not more than a few pages later, all the way down to him being sick before they are hit by a storm they never saw coming.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Somehow I doubt you mean Bran III in Dance. If you refer to Game, Bran has visions of actions done behind closed doors and windows as well. Sansa crying herself into sleep in her own bed in her own room wouldn't be visible to any bird at all. Nor would Arya's heart.

[zaphodbrx]

Raven mechanics are a plot hole. Deal with it.

If they worked anything like what is suggested in TWOW sample chapter, it would mean that every castle had hundreds of cages of ravens corresponding to hundreds of castles in the realm. You might say that each castle would only have a few types of cages but in the text we have plenty of examples which are otherwise. For eg., Robb at the Crag receives a message from Ser Rodrik at Castle Cerwyn. Why would Cerwyns ( minor house in North ) keep ravens from the Crag ( minor house in Westerlands )? I can't think of any reason. Even worse is how Dagmar managed to send a message to Theon/Asha after losing the fight at Thorrhen's square. Was he carrying around a bunch of ravens? To Winterfell and Deepwood motte?

The sheer mechanics of transporting hundreds of thousands of ravens all over the place is just so impossible. At best a typical castle should have ravens to it's regional capital and KL.

Raven speed is another issue. It seems to travel instantly, whereas in the real world their speed should be fixed to 200 miles per day or some realistic number. The Dagmar thing in the North again.. We know Deepwood Motte is 15 days ride from Winterfell. Assuming a few days for raven to reach and Asha sets off instantly, about 18 days passes when Asha is neither in DWM nor winterfell so how did she get message from Dagmar? Though the whole North thing is so Fcked up. Ramsey managed to get to the Dreadfort ( which is farther away than DWM ) and back in like a couple days, while Rodrik took forever to get from Torrhen's square to winterfell..

[Khal Pono]

I thought this thread was going to be about the Baltimore Ravens, but I was looking in the wrong forum. -__-

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Uh, the castles do? And it's more like ~150 castles that even possess ravens. With ravens being sent sparely.

Both Cerwyns and Westerlings are in the top 20 houses of their respective regions, at least.

[mindchap]

Somehow I doubt you mean Bran III in Dance. If you refer to Game, Bran has visions of actions done behind closed doors and windows as well. Sansa crying herself into sleep in her own bed in her own room wouldn't be visible to any bird at all. Nor would Arya's heart.

He doesn't see Sansa in her own bed crying, he sees her crying herself to sleep at night while Arya watches holding on to her secrets. He's seeing what happened on the Kingsroad when Lady is killed. I think it's a mix of all of it, the trees and the birds, and there definitely would have been plenty of little birds all along the way.

[Dragon in the pools]

The children taught the First Men to use the ravens and the greenseers of the children can see through the birds,

Other birds can be used but ravens are best. The citadel has been training maesters to use ravens since the First Men.

As we see with Theon the ravens at Winterfell after the fire and death of luwin return to Winterfell. The ravens are trained and tended to by those who have the skills taught and learned from the citadel. Most likely the ravens at Winterfell were bread by luwin and Walys along with the ravens of the other castles, keeps, or towers.

But... The greenseer of the children can see through the birds.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

He doesn't see Sansa in her own bed crying, he sees her crying herself to sleep at night while Arya watches holding on to her secrets. He's seeing what happened on the Kingsroad when Lady is killed. I think it's a mix of all of it, the trees and the birds, and there definitely would have been plenty of little birds all along the way.

When they stop in castles and inns every night? Even a simple tent would prevent any birds from watching Sansa.

Furthermore, there are no ravens on the Bite, away from the coast.

[mindchap]

When they stop in castles and inns every night? Even a simple tent would prevent any birds from watching Sansa.

Furthermore, there are no ravens on the Bite, away from the coast.

I said birds.

How else can Bloodraven see exactly what is happening on a boat out to sea? If not by bird?

And if BR has been at this for 150 years or so it would definitely be easy for him to observe anything.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I said birds.

And if BR has been at this for 150 years or so it would definitely be easy for him to observe anything.

Birds may account for Cat and Ser Rodrik on their ship, but you haven't adressed the Sansa issue. Whether it's stone, brick, wood or cloth, no bird would be able to watch her bed.

You try to base your argument on the unproven theory that BR needs birds to watch anything. But that's just your assumption.

For reference, direwolf siblings sense each other. Why shouldn't Bran be able to sense his siblings (or parents) the same way?

[mindchap]

Birds may account for Cat and Ser Rodrik on their ship, but you haven't adressed the Sansa issue. Whether it's stone, brick, wood or cloth, no bird would be able to watch her bed.

You try to base your argument on the unproven theory that BR needs birds to watch anything. But that's just your assumption.

For reference, direwolf siblings sense each other. Why shouldn't Bran be able to sense his siblings (or parents) the same way?

Which is why I said way back on the first page this isn't the topic to bring it up. And when I hammer out the details I'll start a thread about it.

[Scipio Africanus]

For reference, direwolf siblings sense each other. Why shouldn't Bran be able to sense his siblings (or parents) the same way?

Bran communicated with Ghost (and Jon) through a weirwood tree and told him about Mance's Wildling army at the Skirling pass. And he wasn't a fully trained greenseeer yet, who knows how much a trained one can see and through which mediums.

[The Mother of The Others]

The theory you've posted has to be wrong, ...

All of my theories are wrong, so you've made the smart bet.

...because there are numerous references in the books to archers taking out ravens when they're flying away with a message.

However, What? Archers shooting birds doesn't prove or disprove anything. Also,

Transporting ravens from their breeding place to their place of service happens all the time. Benjen does it in Game, from Winterfell to Castle Black.

......Aha! Go go return-to-sender theory! And then on to Aha part II: the sequel---

The spolier chapter proves that most ravens behave just like carrier pigeons in the real world: Being raised in one castle, transferred to another and send back with a message. Only a very small minority can actually fly back and forth.

So the non-magic option starts to look gooder. Which fits with the Cit being anti-magic and all.

And for the question of how many ravens is too many ravens:

Dagmar managed to send a message to Theon/Asha after losing the fight at Thorrhen's square. Was he carrying around a bunch of ravens [for specific castles]? transporting thousands of ravens all over the place is just so impossible.

Uh, before Dagmar got into this trouble, had he previously been where Asha was stationed? He could have taken with him only the relevant birds for messaging his boss or other Ironmen-held fortresses. That'd cut down on your bird load considerably while on the road. And your shelf of birds at home would be stocked based on likely demand, not complete with every single castle's bird! Just the places you have regular contact with, along with your list of "emergency contacts." (like any magazine shelf, you'd try to have a well-rounded selection of birds you're likely to use. You wouldn't want to waste valuable space on your magazine rack with something too obscure like "Trampoline Monthly." (Or a Saltpans bird). You'd keep one of those lowrider mags and some "health & body fitness" mags and a People Magazine thrown in for good measure).

What I meant was they must for example be raised in say Winterfell, then just whispered, 'The Eyrie' and somehow know.

That'd be interesting. The greenseer maybe listens for the destination and then periodically wargs that bird in flight to make sure it's staying on course. Hmm. It wouldn't be a totally reliable way of spying for Bloodraven but he'd be able to piece together the big picture of what was happening in the realm.

Raven mechanics are a plot hole. Deal with it.

Okay I will. Using my thinking. [uNILATERAL BRAIN ACTIVATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

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...................Solution!-- Genetic Memory. That's the ticket. The warged birds were exposed to the language and thoughts of foreign minds for an eon. Until they evolved a genetic memory of all the locations of ancient castles and were henceforth born knowing what the Maesters' flight instructions meant, because the destinations are hardwired into their brains after so many generations. When the maester signals a specific place using whatever psycho codes the Citadel uses, the birds understand because the bird-code itself is based on how the Children used to instruct the birds directly via warging. (similar to the way our cars' wheels are still spaced the same distance apart as train tracks, even though there's no real reason for that anymore. It's just an echo of the previous age.) And because the land is so stagnant, few new castles are built and the birds' internal maps remain current for the most part over the centuries.

Okay that explanation doesn't fit the facts either, but it was an excellent use of MENTAL BRAINING. Alright, BRAIN OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whew, thank god that's over. can you imagine some people leave their brains on all the time, all day every day?!?!? That's ludicrous.

So ends the great Bird Post of 2013.