In terms of fighters, what is the numeric strength of the crannogmen?

[Lord Klax Stark]

Being a huge fan of the Great Northern Conspiracy, I got to wondering what everyone thought the fighting strength of the crannogmen was in regards to numbers, since most people believe that the crannogs have a large part in it. Although there is no textual evidence one way or another, I would put their strength at about 5000 men. My reasons for this are simple. For one, before the Starks conquered it The Neck was an independent kingdom, which would suggest that it had a fair number of fighting men in order to remain its own political entity for presumably hundreds to thousands of years (The story only mentions that they were conquered in the last couple thousand years, that leaves something like 4 to 6 thousand years of independence). For two, the Neck itself is quite large, if you look at a map it takes up at least a third of the riverlands which itself is rather big. While I know that most of this land wouldn't be habitable by most people's standards, it can probably support a fair number of hearty martial folk, especially since the terrain breeds individuals for endurance (jojen and meera appear quite tough, and they are young). And finally, according to the wiki, house reed is not only considered one of the major houses of the North, but also has eight other houses sworn to them. If each of these houses yields up only 500 men, with the reeds producing a thousand (they have to have a bit more to stay top dog right?) then you easily get that 5k number. What does everyone think? And what could a possible 5k army under the leadership of a firm stark loyalist mean in terms of the future of the North in the last two books?

[Sansa_Stark]

Absolutely nothing. Crannogmen are absolutely useless as an army when they are not hiding in swamps and using guerilla tactics.

I believe Meera, a fully grown woman(16) crannogwomen was barely taller than a crippled 8 year old Bran.

[Morienthar]

They are essentially like the northern hill tribes an older peoples,They are most comfortable in ther own environment and probably won't be able to fight well outside it.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I can't imagine that there are actually that many of them because the Neck is so inhospitable. There are a few Houses in the Neck and like you said they used to be independent. They don't have armies because they are so small and they're much better at holding the Neck.

[A Crow Come Over]

Absolutely nothing. Crannogmen are absolutely useless as an army when they are not hiding in swamps and using guerilla tactics.

I believe Meera, a fully grown woman(16) crannogwomen was barely taller than a crippled 8 year old Bran.

Small stature automatically means inferior warrior, right?

[Corvo Attano]

They use guerilla tactics, so they would be completley useless in an area they weren't familiar with (which is pretty nuch everywhere other than The Neck), and that also means that numbers count for nothing - In the Neck, 100 crannogmen could defeat a 10,000 strong invading army, but anywhere else it would be reversed.

[Sullen]

They are only useful to defend the Neck, they would probably get slaughtered outside of it.

[Morienthar]

I believe Meera, a fully grown woman(16) crannogwomen was barely taller than a crippled 8 year old Bran.

The Mongols conqured half of asia,Their averge height was about 5' 4".

[Sansa_Stark]

Small stature automatically means inferior warrior, right?

I actually think it does. Can any of them ride a real horse? I forgot. Even if they can, how are they going to go up against plated knights?

[A Crow Come Over]

I actually think it does. Can any of them ride a real horse? I forgot. Even if they can, how are they going to go up against plated knights?

So you have to ride a "real" horse and be tall to be a warrior, got it.

[Free Northman]

I would put them roughly at the level of Umbers or Karstarks or Mountain tribes, in terms of numbers. Around 3000 at a guess.

Their lands may be swampy, but it is also 1200 miles south of the Last Hearth, therefore far warmer than the Umber lands, and about twice the size of the Umber or Karstark lands.

As you say, they were the Marsh Kingdom until about 4000 years ago.

So I'd put them at the same level as the other main Stark bannermen. 3000 men.

[Sansa_Stark]

I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive over this subject.

[Lord Klax Stark]

I don't necessarily agree. Just because a fighting force is known for its guerrilla tactics doesn't mean it can't fight in the open. Also stature doesn't automatically mean a warrior will be inferior. Even beyond that the crannogmen by all accounts excel at using poisons. You are honestly telling me that a force of several thousand skirmishes using poisoned weaponry won't be a force to be reckoned with? Come on guys. And if you are dead set on them being useless for nothing but guerilla warfare, well westeros is heavily wooded in many regions. A guy lobbing a poison dart at you from behind a tree is just as good as one hiding behind a swamp fern. I don't think people give the crannogmen half as much credit as they deserve.

[A Crow Come Over]

I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive over this subject.

I'm not, I was hoping you'd realize how ignorant your statement was. I'm sure Arthur Dayne and the Iron Men who were killed at Moat Cailin disagree with you about their fighting prowess, which you seem to just equate to riding a horse and how tall you are.

Plus the fact that they have never been conquered, I'd say that they are pretty competent warriors.

[Dryhtscipe]

The Mongols conqured half of asia,Their averge height was about 5' 4".

Except the average height in Europe at the time was not much different. People used to be shorter. A lot shorter, actually. Any modern basketball player sent back in time would be seen as something of a freak.

[Dryhtscipe]

So you have to ride a "real" horse and be tall to be a warrior, got it.

You certainly have to be tall. The taller, the better. Height equals victory in combat, because of reach.

There's a good reason all of the most feared warriors in aSoIaF are unusually tall.

[Dryhtscipe]

I don't necessarily agree. Just because a fighting force is known for its guerrilla tactics doesn't mean it can't fight in the open. Also stature doesn't automatically mean a warrior will be inferior. Even beyond that the crannogmen by all accounts excel at using poisons. You are honestly telling me that a force of several thousand skirmishes using poisoned weaponry won't be a force to be reckoned with? Come on guys. And if you are dead set on them being useless for nothing but guerilla warfare, well westeros is heavily wooded in many regions. A guy lobbing a poison dart at you from behind a tree is just as good as one hiding behind a swamp fern. I don't think people give the crannogmen half as much credit as they deserve.

They certainly have their uses, but skirmishers (with some exceptions dependent on terrain and being the defending force) are useless without mobile cavalry and heavy infantry.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Reeds have the same standing as other main bannermen and are considered more than petty Lords (where we have examples of up to 1,000 men). Therefore, I assume them to be on the same military level as other main bannermen. Anything between 2,000 and 6,000 fits.

[Andrés Garcia]

Everything else being equal, being taller is better in terms of medieval one-on-one combat. That's not to say that whoever is tallest always wins, obviously...

I'm 200 cm and I would probably get my ass kicked by Peter Dinklage.

[Morienthar]

Except the average height in Europe at the time was not much different. People used to be shorter. A lot shorter, actually. Any modern basketball player sent back in time would be seen as something of a freak.

Actually the Men of Europe in the late 1200's(Which is when the Mongol empire was at it's peak) were about a whole 4 inches taller.

The height in europe dipped by 2-3 inches during the late 1500's to late 1600's.