Elia Didn't Know Aegon Was Replaced With an Imposter

[zmandacorrupt]

While I remain neutral on the subject I do have to point out that mothers do not have a sixth sense when it comes to recognizing their offspring. Children are switched accidentally in nurseries all the time and the error usually goes unnoticed until adulthood. This is a frighteningly common phenomenon. I do believe that all babies look pretty much the same but the issue here is that targaryens have a very obvious eye color and that is one change in appearance that would have been noticed even in the case of a baby.

[TalalOfDorne]

While I remain neutral on the subject I do have to point out that mothers do not have a sixth sense when it comes to recognizing their offspring. Children are switched accidentally in nurseries all the time and the error usually goes unnoticed until adulthood. This is a frighteningly common phenomenon. I do believe that all babies look pretty much the same but the issue here is that targaryens have a very obvious eye color and that is one change in appearance that would have been noticed even in the case of a baby.

AND this wasn't a newborn baby. Aegon was close to a year old when the sack happened, and I think thats long enough for a mother to recognize at least SOME features in her child.

[TheCrannogDweller]

First of all, the premise of the OP is wrong, IMO. For the switch to work, Elia had to be in on it.

Yes, perhaps but that would imply that Varys knew he would have needed change. And that`s just absurd. He could have organized escape route for Elia and her children and secure them.

My point is that they could have just smuggled Aegon (and Rhaenys!) to Dragonstone to be with their aunt and uncle and grandmother, and the lot could've eventually gotten to the Free Cities. No need for a switch.

Varys is not Willem Darry - he couldn't just abscond with half the Royal family and go across the Narrow sea. He needed to remain in King's Landing, therefore an outright disappearance of Rhaegar's family was not an option.

Also, he might've well had a baby ready in advance. After all, the guy has a spy network of children. Why is it so hard to imagine that one of them would have the Valyrian look? Especially since we know that almost every Lyseni whore has it...

Add to that the fact that he was quite aware of the rift between Aerys and Rhaegar and the fact that Elia and the kids were basically hostages, and the possibility that the Prince's heir might need to be smuggled out starts looking more and more likely.

Varys is smart, extremly intelligent politician, but he is not all-knowing, and all-mighty. People, use logic... It never happened. Aegon is Elia`s son as I am.

You should lay claim to the Iron Throne. I'm sure you can gather a lot of support from this forum. :D

Because we have quite resonant question: why saving Aegon? You already have Viserys.

1. Because Aegon is the heir of the beloved Crown Prince, whereas Viserys is the son of the Mad King. In other words - PR purposes.

2. Because with Viserys and Dany highly visible and drawing Robert's attention, Aegon could be raised in a safe and secure environment.

4. I meant he couldn`t have predicted that they will have no time to prepare for army to come. When you are under siege, it lasts for days, Varys couldn`t have predicted that those days will actually be one.

Varys was smart enough to know that after Rhaegar died, the war was lost.

Plus, you conveniently forget the fact that Varys knew Tywin Lannister and that he was leading his host towards the city, which is why the Eunuch was the only one who counseled Aerys NOT to open his gates to the Westerlands' army.

If Elia lived, then any baby swap would have been useless.

Elia herself was no threat to Robert's rule. Her children were. As I said above, for the swap to work, Elia had to be in on it - and I think she was.

And from that point onward - do you think there is any scenario in which a living Elia would confess to her son surviving, thus threatening his life? Nope.

Why not save Rhaenys too, if they could save Aegon? Why not just smuggle him out and not even worry about a switch?

Well, for one thing, Aegon is his father's heir, while Rhaenys comes after Viserys.

For another, Rhaenys was a quite recognizable princess, probably known by many people in the Red Keep - people who might recognize her double. Aegon on the other hand, was still a baby, and was still not a publicly recognizable face. And to outsiders, most babies look alike.

Something else interesting — the Pisswater Prince story implies, at least to me, that the double was a newborn or close to it ("His mother died birthing him ..." and his father obviously hadn't bonded with him that much if he sold him for a jug of wine). Aegon, though not that old, was not a newborn and was at least several months old, probably close to a year if not a bit older. There is no way to convincingly pass off a newborn as a year-old child.

First of all, your age estimate is pure conjecture. And just because his father didn't want the kid, doesn't mean he would've let him die. Varys just offered him a way out. I seriously doubt that the Spider would've told him what he needed the kid for.

[The Ghost Beyond the Wall]

I would think they Varys would make it his job to make the switch as subtle ad possible, but surely Eli's had seen her son once before this to know what he looked like? I certainly don't think that Varys anticipated what deplorable and despicable things Gregor would do, but at least anticipated that her children would be in harms way after aerys refused to heed his advice and opened the gates to the lions

[Inquisitor Glokta]

She couldn`t recognize her own son while nursing him? No way...

Well as we know, Elia was bed ridden for weeks after her second pregnancy. Based on this fact i would assume that Aegon probably had a wetnurse.

We also have no timeframe as to when exactly Vary's pulled the switch, he could have exchanged them just before Aerys opened the gates.

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

just no. A mother would recognize her child. Aegon is dead.

[Waylin Stark]

Elia would know in a heartbeat if her son was switched. This, along with the prophecy of a "mummer's dragon" is the only reason I doubt Aegon is real.

[Kahl Trollo]

I do believe that all babies look pretty much the same

One question:

Do you have one?

I can assure you when you have one, they look nowhere near the same. There is no sixth sense involved, and it doesn't just come down to generic 'looks' - you notice every single little thing about your own offspring, right from the very start. Mannerisms, tiny details, and SMELL. Even twins. As a Father I noticed this, and when I held my kids scant moments after they were born, there was no mistaking them for another, a Mother has an even closer bond.

If he were whisked away to a nursery at birth, then switched, before his Mother truely held him just once - I might be able to get behind this even a tiny bit, but year or so old baby - no. It has nothing to do with sixth sense or 'magical mother powers'

[Inquisitor Glokta]

One question:

Do you have one?

I can assure you when you have one, they look nowhere near the same. There is no sixth sense involved, and it doesn't just come down to generic 'looks' - you notice every single little thing about your own offspring, right from the very start. Mannerisms, tiny details, and SMELL. Even twins. As a Father I noticed this, and when I held my kids scant moments after they were born, there was no mistaking them for another, a Mother has an even closer bond.

If he were whisked away to a nursery at birth, then switched, before his Mother truely held him just once - I might be able to get behind this even a tiny bit, but year or so old baby - no. It has nothing to do with sixth sense or 'magical mother powers'

Do you still recognize all these things when a 8foot giant, with a greatsword almost as big as him, is trying to kill you and your children?

I believe not, no way sorry.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Do you still recognize all these things when a 8foot giant, with a greatsword almost as big as him, is trying to kill you and your children?

I believe not, no way sorry.

Then, sorry, you have no idea.

[Mladen]

Well as we know, Elia was bed ridden for weeks after her second pregnancy. Based on this fact i would assume that Aegon probably had a wetnurse.

We also have no timeframe as to when exactly Vary's pulled the switch, he could have exchanged them just before Aerys opened the gates.

And do you forget that Aegon was one year at the time of the Sacking. So, unless you are arguing that he was switched when he was born, there is no way he could have been switched later.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Then, sorry, you have no idea.

Have you ever been in a live threatening situatuion like that?

I believe a 100 things went through Elia's head all at once and none of them had to do with making sure the baby she is holding is actually hers.

I'm not sure at which hour the whole thing went down, but lets say it was night. Makes it even harder to recognize a baby...

edit:

And do you forget that Aegon was one year at the time of the Sacking. So, unless you are arguing that he was switched when he was born, there is no way he could have been switched later.

Vary's could have switched the baby while Aerys opened the gates or while the Mountain was on his way to Maegor's.

It is nowhere mentioned when he pulled the switch and somehow i doubt that he did it weeks before the Lannister host got to KL.

[Mladen]

Varys is not Willem Darry - he couldn't just abscond with half the Royal family and go across the Narrow sea. He needed to remain in King's Landing, therefore an outright disappearance of Rhaegar's family was not an option.

Also, he might've well had a baby ready in advance. After all, the guy has a spy network of children. Why is it so hard to imagine that one of them would have the Valyrian look? Especially since we know that almost every Lyseni whore has it...

Add to that the fact that he was quite aware of the rift between Aerys and Rhaegar and the fact that Elia and the kids were basically hostages, and the possibility that the Prince's heir might need to be smuggled out starts looking more and more likely.

IF he smuggled Aegon, why couldn`t he had done the same for all three of them, If he managed to sneak up Aegon, I don`t think it wold be that difficult to sneak woman with two infants. He actually didn`t need to go with them, like we suppose he didn`t go with Aegon.

Why would he have a baby in advance? Because he predicted that very same situation that happened? No way... Elia was hostage to ensure support of Dorne, but her children weren`t. I doubt if it would come to that, Aerys ould have hurt his own blood.

1. Because Aegon is the heir of the beloved Crown Prince, whereas Viserys is the son of the Mad King. In other words - PR purposes.

2. Because with Viserys and Dany highly visible and drawing Robert's attention, Aegon could be raised in a safe and secure environment.

1. Rhaegar was also Aerys` son, and I don`t think he was under bad PR

2. Again, you are claiming that Varys predicted something out of range of normal man, even Varys couldn`t predicted ecverything.

Varys was smart enough to know that after Rhaegar died, the war was lost.

Plus, you conveniently forget the fact that Varys knew Tywin Lannister and that he was leading his host towards the city, which is why the Eunuch was the only one who counseled Aerys NOT to open his gates to the Westerlands' army.

Yes, but you forget then, that Varys warned Aerys when Tywin came with an army, not before. Varys` mistrust towards Tywin wasn`t existant up until that moment, as we know of. It was a moment, not some long discussion that lasted for days. Varys couldn`t have prepared for what Tywin did.

[Kahl Trollo]

Do you still recognize all these things when a 8foot giant, with a greatsword almost as big as him, is trying to kill you and your children?

I believe not, no way sorry.

You'd notice it before you were HOLDING the baby for a start. And if you were trying to protect the baby - then yes, you would notice such a thing.

I must return the question - have YOU been in a life threatening situation? I have. I had to keep track of 7 men scattered across a 300m area while being shot at. At times like that you actually notice MORE than you normally would - the adrenaline puts you into a sense of very acute awareness of what's around you and more minute details than you'd care to ever remember.

I'd argue your example would actually STRENGTHEN the case that she'd notice.

[Mladen]

Vary's could have switched the baby while Aerys opened the gates or while the Mountain was on his way to Maegor's.

It is nowhere mentioned when he pulled the switch and somehow i doubt that he did it weeks before the Lannister host got to KL.

So, in the chaos of Sacking, Varys goes and finds a child that appers like Aegon, and then brought him back to Elia? He found a child during Sacking, do you understand how crazy that sounds? It`s more than impossible. And again, Elia would have known her child was switched. It`s her child, the one she nursed, for God`s sake.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

You'd notice it before you were HOLDING the baby for a start. And if you were trying to protect the baby - then yes, you would notice such a thing.

You'd notice it under normal circumstances, but not if your house is being attacked and you run in to your child to bring him to safety.

You all assume that Elia went in their in a normal pace, took her sweet time picking the baby up maybe sang a little lullaby to him while nursing him?

The RK was under attack ffs.... Elia probably charged in the room and picked up the baby that was lying in her sons crib as fast as she could to get him to safety as fast as possible.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

So, in the chaos of Sacking, Varys goes and finds a child that appers like Aegon, and then brought him back to Elia? He found a child during Sacking, do you understand how crazy that sounds? It`s more than impossible. And again, Elia would have known her child was switched. It`s her child, the one she nursed, for God`s sake.

Varys is the master of whispers after all....

You think that Tywin's host just appeared before the gates and Varys didn't know they were coming? No way ;)

He could have gotten the baby a few days before the Lannister's arrived and kept him hidden. Maybe he would need to baby to switch it, if not... Well..., worst case he kills it, or has got a new 'little bird' in a few years.

[Kahl Trollo]

Apart from immediately after birth, any scenario for her to not notice someone swapped her baby - especially considering it's age, would have to have her involvement.

Furthermore it would require Gregor to have implicit instructions to smash it's face so as to make the baby unrecognizable at the very least, or be in on it, which again is nearly as silly as the not noticing the baby.

A mother not noticing a child swap, or a mother agreeing to trade the baby then going through a pantomime battle with no audience leading to her rape and murder? A very loyal henchman going against his liege lord to get away with it - or at the very least taking instruction unquestioned from Varys?

No, THAT is becoming just plain silly and overly complicated.

opposed to:

He's dead, Varys takes advantage of what Gregors done to produce an appropriate replacement and spend time to craft a story of babys being whisked out in a nick of time.

Occams Razor can be applied here.

[Kahl Trollo]

You'd notice it under normal circumstances, but not if your house is being attacked and you run in to your child to bring him to safety.

You all assume that Elia went in their in a normal pace, took her sweet time picking the baby up maybe sang a little lullaby to him while nursing him?

The RK was under attack ffs.... Elia probably charged in the room and picked up the baby that was lying in her sons crib as fast as she could to get him to safety as fast as possible.

Well we can bypass this reductio ad absurdum argument very simply.

Yes, you charge into the room, LOOK DOWN AT YOUR SON, pick him up, wrap a blanket around him and run. You make sure they're alright. Ever scooped up a 1yr old from a bed? They wake up, they cry, you would try and hush them, in short YOU'D NOTICE.

In times of danger, doubly so.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Apart from immediately after birth, any scenario for her to not notice someone swapped her baby - especially considering it's age, would have to have her involvement.

Furthermore it would require Gregor to have implicit instructions to smash it's face so as to make the baby unrecognizable at the very least, or be in on it, which again is nearly as silly as the not noticing the baby.

Elia could have been in on it.

Rhaegar wanted her and the children to leave for Dragonstone, because he feared for their safety. Aerys insisted on them staying in KL as hostages to keep Dorne out of the war. Elia would have known that she and her children are in danger if they stayed in KL.

So why not make a pact with Varys to make sure her son is safe?

As for the second part:

Even if his head was not bashed in, who have been able to identify the baby as Aegon without a doubt?