Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera & Jojen?

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

In reply to the first post of this theory and the possibility that Arthur Dayne survived, which I liked a lot, I believe Arthur Dayne should be considered dead. Consider this piece of text from GoT:

Quote

"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."

It would have to be his granfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

Good Quote! I forgot that it wasn't part of the dream sequence. So yes, Arthur's probably dead. I wondered why he didn't have the bones of his bannermen (particularly lord dustin) sent back to his home. It would have been expected. Maybe due to the turmoil of it being in wartime?

[King of Winters]

Good Quote! I forgot that it wasn't part of the dream sequence. So yes, Arthur's probably dead. I wondered why he didn't have the bones of his bannermen (particularly lord dustin) sent back to his home. It would have been expected. Maybe due to the turmoil of it being in wartime?

I just think there's something else behind the whole event. Maybe not Ser Arthur's survival, but I really think there is more to it. Ned returned Lord Dustin's horse back to Lady Dustin, without Lord Dustin's remains.

I just think there's more to the fight then we think.

[binga]

Howland and Crangonmen are described as ugly right? Meera and Jojen look good or decent I think, so they must be getting that from somewhere.

[Consigliere]

Ashara Dayne is dead.

[C0bR]

In reply to the first post of this theory and the possibility that Arthur Dayne survived, which I liked a lot, I believe Arthur Dayne should be considered dead. Consider this piece of text from GoT:

Quote

"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."

It would have to be his granfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

Well, you have to have eight cairns to complete the illusion. The second part might refer to the two of seven, not the two of combined ten, but that is just my crackpot interpretation :D

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Howland and Crangonmen are described as ugly right? Meera and Jojen look good or decent I think, so they must be getting that from somewhere.

I think them being described as "ugly" is more *racist* (i know racist isn't the right word..nationalist? w/e) than an actual observation on what they looked like. The frey boys made fun of Meera and Jojen while at Winterfell. And they look decent enough.

[Mayura]

Ser Arthur Dayne was at the Tower, so it would make sense if his sister helped them out with supplies and a midwife if they needed any.

And who's to say she didn't teach Meera and Jojen a bit of Dornish education? Meera is presented as Lady, not Jojen, who would heir to Greywater Watch; and Meera is also the toughest out of the two and she's capable of looking after herself.

Well, I think Ashara isn't their mom so she couldn't have taught them anything if you ask me:p . It is not impossible, I agree, but there are absolutely no textual evidence of this theory so far, so HR + AD remains possible but right now it is more wishful thinking/fanfiction than anything else as this whole theory is based on extracts of the books taken out of context and explained in a way that would fit the theory. If tomorrow I decided to write a theory about Ashara Dayne hiding in Skagos with old Stark bannermen, that theory couldn't be disproved either, simply because there are no textual indication whatsoever that it actually happened or didn't happen. But anyway, let's see how the TOJ story is developped,I can't wait :) although, IMO, Ashara chose to protect (f)Aegon and not Jon.

No doubt Ashara could have had something to do with the TOJ... Or not.We don't know to what extent she was trusted by Rhaegar who gave the orders to the KG.

EDIT:

As for Arthur Dayne, I also think he is dead and gone and I like this destiny for Arthur, as I couldn't imagine that the legendary knight would simply go hide after the events surrounding the rebellion, the massacre of the family he was sworn to protect etc.

About the Reed children, Meera is described as a "typical crannogman", she is short and slim, brown hair, green eyes, it is never mentionned she is pretty/beautiful. Theon doesn't find her beautiful but he notices her so she isn't ugly either (cf. ACOK). And Bran has a huge crush on her, so she has to have some charisma :) I'd tend to say she is average. Not amazingly beautiful, but still attractive. Jojen is described as being much the same, typically short and slim, brown hair, green eyes (deeper than Meera > green dreams). Howland Reed is just described as small as all crannogmenbut it isn't said he is ugly (unless I couldn't find the extract)

So I don't think their physical appearance gives many clues about their mother, they both seem to be average looking (so far, as there are no indication that any of them is super ugly or beautiful) and also have the typical crannogmen characteristics.

[King of Winters]

Well, I think Ashara isn't their mom so she couldn't have taught them anything if you ask me:p . It is not impossible, I agree, but there are absolutely no textual evidence of this theory so far, so HR + AD remains possible but right now it is more wishful thinking/fanfiction than anything else as this whole theory is based on extracts of the books taken out of context and explained in a way that would fit the theory. If tomorrow I decided to write a theory about Ashara Dayne hiding in Skagos with old Stark bannermen, that theory couldn't be disproved either, simply because there are no textual indication whatsoever that it actually happened or didn't happen. But anyway, let's see how the TOJ story is developped,I can't wait :) although, IMO, Ashara chose to protect (f)Aegon and not Jon.

No doubt Ashara could have had something to do with the TOJ... Or not.We don't know to what extent she was trusted by Rhaegar who gave the orders to the KG.

EDIT:

As for Arthur Dayne, I also think he is dead and gone and I like this destiny for Arthur, as I couldn't imagine that the legendary knight would simply go hide after the events surrounding the rebellion, the massacre of the family he was sworn to protect etc.

About the Reed children, Meera is described as a "typical crannogman", she is short and slim, brown hair, green eyes, it is never mentionned she is pretty/beautiful. Theon doesn't find her beautiful but he notices her so she isn't ugly either (cf. ACOK). And Bran has a huge crush on her, so she has to have some charisma :) I'd tend to say she is average. Not amazingly beautiful, but still attractive. Jojen is described as being much the same, typically short and slim, brown hair, green eyes (deeper than Meera > green dreams). Howland Reed is just described as small as all crannogmenbut it isn't said he is ugly (unless I couldn't find the extract)

So I don't think their physical appearance gives many clues about their mother, they both seem to be average looking (so far, as there are no indication that any of them is super ugly or beautiful) and also have the typical crannogmen characteristics.

If Ashara had anything to do with the Tower of Joy, then she'd probably help Jon instead of (F)Aegon, as she'd believe, like the KG, he is dead and Jon is the next Targ King. And she'd have been gas closer to Jon than Aegon or Varys.

I don't think Varys would go to great lengths to get Ashara on his side when she was many leagues away, and he might not have even seen her as important as she was just a lady-in-waiting to Elia, nothing more.

I think one of the things that makes Bran fall in love with Meera is because they've spent a lot of time together, and being the only girl for Bran in his life so far, he's slowly developed feeling for her. Slowly from friend to, in Bran's mind, his first love.

[Geoge Michael]

Well, you have to have eight cairns to complete the illusion. The second part might refer to the two of seven, not the two of combined ten, but that is just my crackpot interpretation :D

I don't agree with you.

Yes, he might have digged for 8 cairns without having 8 corpses, however if you look closely at the piece of text he states that of the entire group of 7+3 that participated to the skirmish only 2 rode away, which is Ned Stark and Howland Reed. Apart from that, he has returned with almost 100% certainty the body of her sister to winterfell because she belongs there.

"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."

It would have to be his granfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.In reply to the first post of this theory and the possibility that Arthur Dayne survived, which I liked a lot, I believe Arthur Dayne should be considered dead. Consider this piece of text from GoT:

[Dragonblood Stormborn]

I think this a fantastic theory. Well thought out and certainly plausible, though difficult to know if true. It seems to me most of the best theories are not that different though. It is curious that we know nothing of the mother of Howland Reeds children, or even much about Howland Reed who is presumably alive. Would he not have led a host to avenge the death of Ned Stark upon hearing of his murder and false accusations? Or is there some other reason he must remain so cryptic. Also, I never read anything about Crannogmen being "ugly"! They are noted as "small". I imagined them as people of the forest who know have ancient ways that serve for their survival in the wild lands. At some point someone wrote about them not having a horse master and thus they could not know how to ride & handle horses without their mother (presumably Ashara) to teach them. That makes no sense to me because why would they need someone to teach them to ride horses? They could easily figure it out themselves. I imagine Crannogmen to be civilized Wildlings. Clearly Jojen and Meera know how to climb trees, interact with animals, remain silent in the woods, sleep int he woods, they know the land, the trees the animals. I picture them quite attractive children who never primp and who have no vanity, therefore they do not present as beautiful, but as just natural. They know how to "blend in".

I love all that can be developed off this theory. :bowdown: :bang: :drool: :ack: :bs:

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

I don't agree with you.

Yes, he might have digged for 8 cairns without having 8 corpses, however if you look closely at the piece of text he states that of the entire group of 7+3 that participated to the skirmish only 2 rode away, which is Ned Stark and Howland Reed. Apart from that, he has returned with almost 100% certainty the body of her sister to winterfell because she belongs there.

Couldn't that also mean that any of the others could have chosen to stay not instead of riding away from the ToJ? That doesn't mean mean that the others that remained at the TOJ forever, but just longer than Ned.

[Dead Wolf]

Meera is a possibility but Jojen is too young and Ashara was dead by the time he was born

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Meera is a possibility but Jojen is too young and Ashara was dead by the time he was born

... The point of the theory is that Ashara isn't dead.

[James March]

Couldn't that also mean that any of the others could have chosen to stay not instead of riding away from the ToJ? That doesn't mean mean that the others that remained at the TOJ forever, but just longer than Ned.

No.

...yet only two had lived to ride away...

Can you really see a hidden..

...some other had lived to stay there/walk away...

..statement? Also, Ned Stark did destroy the ToJ completely in order to bury the other people. Why should anyone, presumably heavily injured, stay there?

It is clear that we have not been explicitly said what happened to the other 8, but not always 8 graves and the implication that only 2 people lived to ride away is not enough to conclude some guys are really dead. Doubting it is just the same as proposing Ned Stark is still alive, IMHO.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

I find people's lack of faith in this disturbing. HE IS ALIVE! :commie:

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

No.

Can you really see a hidden..

..statement? Also, Ned Stark did destroy the ToJ completely in order to bury the other people. Why should anyone, presumably heavily injured, stay there?

It is clear that we have not been explicitly said what happened to the other 8, but not always 8 graves and the implication that only 2 people lived to ride away is not enough to conclude some guys are really dead. Doubting it is just the same as proposing Ned Stark is still alive, IMHO.

That's a good point. I was misremembering that quote.

Wouldn't that remove the likelihood of there being a wetnurse? since only 2 rode away?

[C0bR]

That's a good point. I was misremembering that quote.

Wouldn't that remove the likelihood of there being a wetnurse? since only 2 rode away?

In my opinion, the number two states what number of the seven survived, not counting in either the KG or other persons present.

The "yet" in that sentence makes it for me. Ned laments that even though they outnumbered the KG more than 2 to 1, only two of the seven rode away.

[maidenandwarrior]

You know, it kind of cracks me up that I find the most radical part of this theory to be Ashara/Howland, and yet everyone else seems to get stuck on Arthur Dayne. I literally sat on this theory for awhile because I thought it was too radical, everyone would get upset about saying Ashara married a crannogman, yet everyone gets caught on Arthur... LOL.

As for only two had lived to ride away, yes I think Ned is referring to his companions. And even if he isn't, to his mind, "Arthur Dayne" is dead. Who ever it was that rode away with him and Howand and babyJon, was a deadman. He wasn't "living." Arthur Dayne figuratively has to die in order to keep his vow.

And just a little reminder, Jojen seems to have an interesting perspective on "dead" and "alive." As seen in ASOS:

Sam was staring at [bran]. "You're Jon Snow's brother. The one who fell..."

"No," said Jojen. "That boy is dead." (771)

[Jamada]

In my opinion, the number two states what number of the seven survived, not counting in either the KG or other persons present.

Yours is the accurate interpretation of that statement.

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away

The above statement can be reduced to "They had been seven; only two had lived to ride away."

The prepositional phrase "against three" adds additional - not contradictory - context. Specifically, "against three" (a) informs us that there were three antagonists, and (b ) explicitly justifies the use of "yet" as a conjunction. ("yet" could be used regardless of the missing context, but it would certainly make one wonder why more or less than two of seven were expected to survive.)

[James March]

Yours is the accurate interpretation of that statement.

Is it?

It is certainly a second possibility, but I can't see why it should be more accurate than the other.

Anyway, I would be pleased if the sword of the dawn can have been secretly alive the whole time. I'm leaving the discussion, there's no more concrete data do be discussed.. just opinions.