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[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

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Since you have internet access it's a pretty easy thing to look up the scene or images of the scene to determine whether or not your observation was correct to begin with.

How is it incorrect to think his book counterpart was still more wounded than show Robb? Even seeing the picture and the arrow, or two, I still got the impression he was more hurt in the books. Talk about rude people on these forums..

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Okay gag. I could have done without the how can you blame Robb have you seen Talisa crap. It's hilarious people think she's sympathetic. The only reason she is is because of the pregnancy.

Sorry, back to the arrow. I only seen one but my bad I didn't really notice because its so small. (And it would be extremely hard to see when he's standing up and the camera isn't doing a close up.) But wow that was so close to his heart it looks like.

Yeah. the second arrow is not that clear to see. You can see the back of the arrow on Robb's right chest.

He's a beast for still standing at the end. Though mentally he was pretty much destroyed.

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How is it incorrect to think his book counterpart was still more wounded than show Robb? Even seeing the picture and the arrow, or two, I still got the impression he was more hurt in the books. Talk about rude people on these forums..

People are snarky sometimes. But I think we are all here because of our shared interest in GRRM's books and the HBO series.

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How is it incorrect to think his book counterpart was still more wounded than show Robb? Even seeing the picture and the arrow, or two, I still got the impression he was more hurt in the books. Talk about rude people on these forums..

Well I don't see how it matters if he was more injured in the book? It's a book...Things don't seem as silly as when you see them on a screen. Robb being able to do anything minutes after taking at least 2 bolts in his chest is pretty impressive. Not to mention in the show he actually loves Talisa, as opposed to sort of loving Jeyne in a teenage way, so the mental breakdown is worse on top of it all, because Jeyne wasn't even there.

And I'm not sure how I'm being rude by telling you that you're arguing a point that you could've easily figured out was not correct had you just taken the very little time to look it up. There's no malign intent there. I just think it's odd to argue something that you could've easily found out to be untrue. It would be like me saying the Blackfish never said he was going to go piss he just disappeared.

Edited by DarkAndFullOfTurnips

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Yeah. the second arrow is not that clear to see. You can see the back of the arrow on Robb's right chest.

He's a beast for still standing at the end. Though mentally he was pretty much destroyed.

I guess it's having book knowledge that ruins enjoyment in scenes of the show. (Sad but true.) I think it's because I read the book first, and then my impression he was still more hurt in the books, is what has my mind thinking he should have done more than stand there (whereas he really couldn't in the books.)

I still give more props to Cat though. She didn't completely give up until seeing her last son (or so she thinks die) whereas he was destroyed by a wife that didn't even know on a map where his home was and unborn baby, when he still had his mom and Sansa was still alive (even if in Lannister grips.) I think it's also the fact I feel the show has built him up to be so much more unsympathetic than his book counterpart which is why I'm probably being so judgmental when I know nothing he did would have saved him. (Unless I hadn't read the books and was a tv only viewer lol.)

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Well I don't see how it matters if he was more injured in the book? It's a book...Things don't seem as silly as when you see them on a screen. Robb being able to do anything minutes after taking at least 2 bolts in his chest is pretty impressive. Not to mention in the show he actually loves Talisa, as opposed to sort of loving Jeyne in a teenage way, so the mental breakdown is worse on top of it all.

And I'm not sure how I'm being rude by telling you that you're arguing a point that you could've easily figured out was not correct had you just taken the very little time to look it up. There's no malign intent there. I just think it's odd to argue something that you could've easily found out to be untrue. It would be like me saying the Blackfish never said he was going to go piss he just disappeared.

I wasn't arguing that he was wounded. I just missed the close up of the arrows that was all. So yes I admit I'm not nearly as observant as some.

And as usual on Talisa I have to agree to disagree with people. This episode was the first time I even saw a tiny bit of chemistry between the actors. I really don't think they were in love even though I know they're 'supposed' to be. Plus I think it's silly to say his love for Jeyne was less than with Talisa just because the show ups the 'romance' side. It seemed like they were quite in love when Cat meets her new daughter in law in the books.

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His last word in the show was "mother", and he died standing and looking at her. His last words in the book was about his wolf, so I really don't get the claim that show Robb didn't care enough about his mother.

it's because he's show!Robb and there is the need to find something to complain about him. It is known.

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I guess it's having book knowledge that ruins enjoyment in scenes of the show. (Sad but true.) I think it's because I read the book first, and then my impression he was still more hurt in the books, is what has my mind thinking he should have done more than stand there (whereas he really couldn't in the books.)

This is the realization I think we all face, and then we can choose either to continue hating things that aren't done like the book, or accept that some things are not possible, better, worse, or just different, but still enjoy the show as a relatively independant piece of work. I made the choice to ignore my book purism during S2 when everything seemed to be changing. In fact I was so livid at Dany's story, which I still think sucks, and was really aggravated at how they changed it. Then I reread aCoK and realized Dany's story just sucked in general, and from then on I accepted that I could enjoy the show and the books separately.

Of course there are some things they change that either make no sense or are failed attempts at improving something. It's not really the place to discuss those things, but I guess we never lose our book prejudice, you can just choose to separate the two which I've found provides a much more enjoyable experience.

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I guess it's having book knowledge that ruins enjoyment in scenes of the show. (Sad but true.) I think it's because I read the book first, and then my impression he was still more hurt in the books, is what has my mind thinking he should have done more than stand there (whereas he really couldn't in the books.)

I still give more props to Cat though. She didn't completely give up until seeing her last son (or so she thinks die) whereas he was destroyed by a wife that didn't even know on a map where his home was and unborn baby, when he still had his mom and Sansa was still alive (even if in Lannister grips.) I think it's also the fact I feel the show has built him up to be so much more unsympathetic than his book counterpart which is why I'm probably being so judgmental when I know nothing he did would have saved him. (Unless I hadn't read the books and was a tv only viewer lol.)

I don't think you can be wrong in your opinion of things. At least not when it comes to fantasy tv shows or novels.

And I agree, Cat is a trooper.

Does anyone know if they are keeping Michelle Fairley on to play Lady S?

Edited by nirolo

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Of course there are some things they change that either make no sense or are failed attempts at improving something. It's not really the place to discuss those things, but I guess we never lose our book prejudice, you can just choose to separate the two which I've found provides a much more enjoyable experience.

Yeah I try not to sweat the little things. Especially since I think some changes were good or just amusing (Tywin and Arya) to watch. There's very few changes that I actually hate. (Which I'm sure you know the one I'm referring to.) and then there's just others that I'm disappointed in, like Dany and Jon season two, but don't let it bother me to much. Especially since they're better this season.

That's half the reason I try not to discuss the very few changes I actually hate. Because I know they're never ending battles and ultimately people like what they like, but then I come here and I just cave in because of seeing those changes held in such high regard compared to the books when most everyone knows Martin most likely doesn't care for the certain ones either lol.

But back on point, I still feel Michele absolutely dominated that scene despite the writers best attempts to focus solely on the poor doomed couple that were going to have a baby.

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Does anyone know if they are keeping Michelle Fairley on to play Lady S?

I really hope so. I hate the speculation of UnTalisa. It's so much more powerful a mother wanting revenge for her children than just one who lost a husband and child that wasn't even born. Cat is so much closer to the stark story than a widow and Jaime/Breenie isn't going to recognize her unless they stereotype and go 'oh I think she's the foreigner that married Robb' lol. But who knows, with some of the things D&D do, I could almost see that.

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But back on point, I still feel Michele absolutely dominated that scene despite the writers best attempts to focus solely on the poor doomed couple that were going to have a baby.

The focus of the episode was really Robb and Catelyn. It even starts with them. I think it's unfair to say the writers want to "Focus solely" on Robb+Talisa when Cat gets the majority of the screen time in the wedding and is the last shot of the episode.

Edited by DarkAndFullOfTurnips

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But back on point, I still feel Michele absolutely dominated that scene despite the writers best attempts to focus solely on the poor doomed couple that were going to have a baby.

Well. We saw the doors closed through Cat's PoV. When the rain of castamere started to play it was also Cat's face we saw. It was also Cat who flipped Roose's shirt to reveal the chain-mail.

Though it is true, Talisa was the first to get stabbed. But in the end, I think what really made the scene linger was Robb's call to Catelyn, "Mother?" And before Catelyn even got a chance to reply Roose stabbed Robb. Which then led to her scream (I think), killing Walder's wife, and then went catatonic and having her throat slit...*silence*...*credit rolls*.

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The focus of the episode was really Robb and Catelyn. It even starts with them. I think it's unfair to say the writers want to "Focus solely" on Robb+Talisa when Cat gets the majority of the screen time in the wedding and is the last shot of the episode.

Well. We saw the doors closed through Cat's PoV. When the rain of castamere started to play it was also Cat's face we saw. It was also Cat who flipped Roose's shirt to reveal the chain-mail.

Though it is true, Talisa was the first to get stabbed. But in the end, I think what really made the scene linger was Robb's call to Catelyn, "Mother?" And before Catelyn even got a chance to reply Roose stabbed Robb. Which then led to her scream (I think), killing Walder's wife, and then went catatonic and having her throat slit...*silence*...*credit rolls*.

When a pregnant woman gets stabbed in the stomach instead of just stabbed in the heart or have her throat cut, and then they focus on Robb touching the belly as soon as he is able to stand, I'm sorry but it felt like they were trying to overshadow Cat. I bet it would have worked too if Michelle wasn't such a great actress.

Maybe it's partly my prejudice against Talisa, and I admit the only thing I remember is her almost comical screams (I watched way to many reaction videos she sounds funny now) and the belly touching, but when they add that much of an over dramatic kill it makes me glad Cat was killed last. Otherwise they would have really changed things and the focus wouldn't have been on mother and son at all.

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And no weapon.

And trying to make a heroic saving last act would just get her killed.

At that point, the only thing Robb could do what to stand up to die like a man, just like the old man Ygritte killed asked for.

Edited by silentwanderer

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When a pregnant woman gets stabbed in the stomach instead of just stabbed in the heart or have her throat cut, and then they focus on Robb touching the belly as soon as he is able to stand, I'm sorry but it felt like they were trying to overshadow Cat. I bet it would have worked too if Michelle wasn't such a great actress.

Maybe it's partly my prejudice against Talisa, and I admit the only thing I remember is her almost comical screams (I watched way to many reaction videos she sounds funny now) and the belly touching, but when they add that much of an over dramatic kill it makes me glad Cat was killed last. Otherwise they would have really changed things and the focus wouldn't have been on mother and son at all.

You know, it's funny because I was also sort of focusing on Talisa, but not for the reasons you describe; I was thinking of whether she would be a spy (never believed in the theory).

But I think once Talisa went down, the rest of the slaughter scenes were mostly focused on Cat. I think.

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When a pregnant woman gets stabbed in the stomach instead of just stabbed in the heart or have her throat cut, and then they focus on Robb touching the belly as soon as he is able to stand, I'm sorry but it felt like they were trying to overshadow Cat. I bet it would have worked too if Michelle wasn't such a great actress.

Maybe it's partly my prejudice against Talisa, and I admit the only thing I remember is her almost comical screams (I watched way to many reaction videos she sounds funny now) and the belly touching, but when they add that much of an over dramatic kill it makes me glad Cat was killed last. Otherwise they would have really changed things and the focus wouldn't have been on mother and son at all.

Now I guess this might be rude. Your inability to accept that an adaptation will have changes from the source material, some or most of which you may dislike, is seriously hindering your ability form and express logical and thoughtful arguments about the rest of the episode and show as a whole. Having Talisa stabbed in the belly is obviously emotion bating. It is not "trying to overshadow Cat" for the reasons you've quoted but also chose to ignore.

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Now I guess this might be rude. Your inability to accept that an adaptation will have changes from the source material, some or most of which you may dislike, is seriously hindering your ability form and express logical and thoughtful arguments about the rest of the episode and show as a whole. Having Talisa stabbed in the belly is obviously emotion bating. It is not "trying to overshadow Cat" for the reasons you've quoted but also chose to ignore.

I know it's an adaptation. I'll even admit that I'll never accept or even remotely like the Talisa change. But the belly stabbing was over kill IMO. They could have killed her in any other way, but like you said, they only choose that so people would feel sorry for her and start liking her. Maybe you like the changes that butchered Cat and Robb up to this point whereas I didn't, and good for you if that's true, but it makes it hard not to talk about those three characters when the episode is mostly focused on the RW after all. And you honestly can't tell me Catelyn hasn't got the short end of the stick because of the Talisa change and far less screen time in the season up until this episode.

I wasn't ignoring the quotes, I simply quoted them because it was easier to do a post two in one then have to keep repeatedly posting about Talisa. Maybe if it was a character I liked I wouldn't mind constantly posting about them.

But to give a response to that quote, I think the making her pregnant thing does kind of lead into wanting to make it more about husband and wife's losses than mother and son. (But obviously I know it was also to make people hurt more in seeing the three killed.) Obviously it didn't work out that way, and it was more focused on Cat, but the fact they had to linger so much on dying/dead baby/Talisa, makes it seem like they wanted to much focus on that rather than what it was supposed to be (and thankfully the essence was still there), Cat and her son.

Eta; I honestly don't think people will understand no matter how much I say this, I like changes. I like them when they're good but when I see a change that I question and think doesn't make sense/or is to drastic of one, then obviously I'm going to be eh about it or even downright hate it. I could name quite a few that I actually like.

Edited by Winter In My Heart

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Maybe it's partly my prejudice against Talisa, and I admit the only thing I remember is her almost comical screams (I watched way to many reaction videos she sounds funny now) and the belly touching, but when they add that much of an over dramatic kill it makes me glad Cat was killed last. Otherwise they would have really changed things and the focus wouldn't have been on mother and son at all.

I think it's completely your prejudice against Talisa. Name me one soon to be father, who is not a psychopath, that would not go to his wife if he watched her get stabbed in the stomach killing both her and his unborn child. There is not a sane male on this planet that would do that, but all of a sudden Robb is supposed to be the one man in the world to do that? It's not over shadowing Cat, it's adding to the scene. After she passed and Robb saw what his mother got herself into he immediately got up to try and stop her to save her(at least thats my opinion of what Robb was doing when he called "mother").

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I think it's completely your prejudice against Talisa. Name me one soon to be father, who is not a psychopath, that would not go to his wife if he watched her get stabbed in the stomach killing both her and his unborn child. There is not a sane male on this planet that would do that, but all of a sudden Robb is supposed to be the one man in the world to do that? It's not over shadowing Cat, it's adding to the scene. After she passed and Robb saw what his mother got herself into he immediately got up to try and stop her to save her(at least thats my opinion of what Robb was doing when he called "mother").

The fact they made her pregnant in the first place feels like they tried to overshadow the mother/son dynamic that was the red wedding. Don't get me wrong i don't hate the scene where he goes to his dead wife like a couple on here said they disliked. I'm saying in general, it felt like they added the pregnancy to have the husband/wife losses overshadow the true importance which is Cat loosing all of her kids/family and the seeming Stark downfall.

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