[Book Spoiler] As A Book Reader...

[gmavridis]

Talisa manner of death shocked me. I figured she would die, but I just always imagined a cut throat or a knife to the heart - her killing was horrible and the look on Robb's face.

Actually hearing Catelyn's scream as opposed to just imagining really got to me.

I Agree.. I was waiting for Talisa to die but not in that brutal way. As GRRM said in an interview they took it to 11....

[Definitely Mayhaps]

As I watched, I could understand the emotions and huge shock felt from a show-fans perspective; it felt more 'final' and abrupt than the book chapter, which was built upon existing suspense (Grey Wind, comments by WF), strange omissions and poor quality entertainment. Robb and Talisa discussing baby names, the doors being shut and the 'Rains..' beginning helped build up a small amount of suspense before things went south but, naturally, they didn't stick to the book and overdo the suspense (which on re-reads I feel GRRM relied on too much before the killing starts).

Don't get me wrong, I adore that chapter, it's easily my favourite chapter in the series just because of it's pure emotional and visceral power being displayed from an already emotionally drained individual's perspective. Benweiss decided to play the 'shock horror' card and up the ante of the killing, particularly Talisa which very deeply shocked me. The focus on a rapid shift from happy ceremony to brutal carnage was magnificent on the watch and, in hindsight now, even better. I truly would not like to see the TV wedding ever again, as at least while reading I can choose not to focus on visualising it in my mind without compromising on understanding what's happening.

'Baelor' I first watched when I knew very little about the series and that really shocked me to the core, despite the fact Ned was played by Sean Bean and couldn't see how he could end up surviving once LF betrayed him. The RW, I imagine, was ten times as worse as that, seeing it was the destruction of an entire legacy and not just one major, but overtly doomed, person. But as a book reader I couldn't find any shock apart from Talisa's death, which I don't think any of us ASOIAF fans saw coming in that horrible manner.

[maelthedruid]

Catelyn's silence between slitting Lord Walder's wife's throat and her own death was absolutely haunting.

[Senor Drogo]

Grey winds death hit me the hardest, what the eff.

Forgot to add this, Ned Stark died twice.....

[Envie]

It's taken me a couple of days to really process how I felt about the scene. After the initial shock was over and I actually went back and re-read the scene in the book, I think I understand both sides of the coin better - from the television creator's perspective as well as the devoted book reader's.

However, my end opinion is that I felt they really over-did the Talisa stuff. Sure, book fans objected to her entirely because she was a made up character that wasn't at all like Jeyne Westerling in the books - but she essentially followed the same story plot and was the same reason (love) that Robb made the fatal error he made. I tolerated it.

But having them be that over the top affectionate, with the baby naming dialogue, minutes before she's to be stabbed repeatedly in the belly just seemed too much, even for viewers who never read the books and possibly cared about her anyways.

My chief complaint about it is that it makes Robb look even more stupid than he was in the books. At least in the books you got the idea he was a smart young man, just inexperienced and made a mistake by allowing young love to override better judgement. In the show, he seems over-emotional and continually making stupid impulsive moves. One example is that after knowing it was stupid to bring her in the first place, he nearly draws his sword right there in Frey's court while Walder was leering and insulting his wife. What did he expect would happen if Cat hadn't stopped him? That was just utterly dumb. Then, fondling her belly and kissing her publicly, even after she said no don't do that, was also dumb... why did they feel the need to take his stupidity over the top? Robb Stark wasn't that ridiculous in the books and it lessens the character even though show viewers seem to love Robb far more than book readers do.

I do realize they chose to have Talisa/Jeyne there for dramatic purposes now, and as a show creator, I'm sure that was done entirely for the non-book readers benefit. It worked and was utterly devastating but for me, it lessened the already gruesome ending for both Robb and his Mother Catelyn by some degree. All anyone can talk about is how Talisa was brutally stabbed over and over in her baby belly. It's as if gross horror effects overruled the despicable way the rest of the Starks had to die. I'm not cool with that.

[MotherofChickens]

I thought the episode was good on the whole-I cried at any rate. I don't like what they did to Robb's character in the series, especially the latest series and I wish that more weight had been given to the loss of his bannermen and the consequences of that as well. My other half hasn't read the books and thinks Robb is an idiot. The actors that played Lord Frey, Bolton and Catelyn were all superb. Arya and the Hound were also awesome I didn't much care for Talisa but I didn't hate the character (although a shame that the Westerling subplot is not in it but realise they have to trim for TV) and agree her murder was awful.

I haven't watched it again yet, couldn't face it the next night and we had a power cut last night!Am sure there's alot I missed.

[Lady Ivy]

My chief complaint about it is that it makes Robb look even more stupid than he was in the books. At least in the books you got the idea he was a smart young man, just inexperienced and made a mistake by allowing young love to override better judgement. In the show, he seems over-emotional and continually making stupid impulsive moves. [...] Robb Stark wasn't that ridiculous in the books and it lessens the character even though show viewers seem to love Robb far more than book readers do.

Oh, this is brilliant. I hadn't been able to pinpoint what was wrong with this, but this is exactly it.

I must admit I hadn't noticed that Robb's wife was a different character until my friend pointed it out. I had read the book a while ago and just once. The story was basically the same, met her in the battlefield, fell in love, broke a promise to another Lord for it. But yes, book Robb is smart. Book Robb was a great leader, took after his father, did the right/honorable things that had to be done, slayed a liege lord by himself, won every battle even though he was very young. And he left his wife behind not to insult the Freys and to try to patch things up.

Movie Robb was not as... tactical. That's the word I am looking for. The good thing with this Talisa/baby murder is that we can stop wondering if we will see Ned/Roberta as the future King/Queen of the North.

[Winter In My Heart]

All anyone can talk about is how Talisa was brutally stabbed over and over in her baby belly. It's as if gross horror effects overruled the despicable way the rest of the Starks had to die. I'm not cool with that.

This. I hate this. Now even, some, people who hated her like her now and feel sorry for her all because she got stabbed and died brutally. Sorry it didn't work for me. Sure it was a horrible death but I still despise the character. But it's annoying people are now going to like her all because they made the death over the top and almost comical.

[Envie]

This. I hate this. Now even, some, people who hated her like her now and feel sorry for her all because she got stabbed and died brutally. Sorry it didn't work for me. Sure it was a horrible death but I still despise the character. But it's annoying people are now going to like her all because they made the death over the top and almost comical.

Well I don't hate the character even though I wish they'd have stuck with the original Jeyne Westerling from the books. What I hate is how the choice to have her brutally stabbed in the gut repeatedly has upstaged the real tragedy that was in the books. Was it not enough that the Starks were betrayed and horrifically murdered during the one time they should have been safe and happy? The evil way they were betrayed, while helplessly trapped inside the wedding hall, was really tragic. I just think having Talisa stabbed repeatedly like a horror flick took away from the rest, even with Michelle Fairley's amazing performance at the end. I really wish they'd left Talisa out.

[Mammothsbane]

Talisa's old-school abortion was brutal.

It didn't diminish Robb/Cat's deaths for me though.

[Winter In My Heart]

Well I don't hate the character even though I wish they'd have stuck with the original Jeyne Westerling from the books. What I hate is how the choice to have her brutally stabbed in the gut repeatedly has upstaged the real tragedy that was in the books. Was it not enough that the Starks were betrayed and horrifically murdered during the one time they should have been safe and happy? The evil way they were betrayed, while helplessly trapped inside the wedding hall, was really tragic. I just think having Talisa stabbed repeatedly like a horror flick took away from the rest, even with Michelle Fairley's amazing performance at the end. I really wish they'd left Talisa out.

Yeah I don't like that they had to do it so over the top. Plus it didn't help Oona acted so over the top as well, IMO. But I have to disagree about leaving her out. I'm glad she's dead because quite honestly I can't see what they would have done with the character beyond the RW. Unless Jeyne was really pregnant than Talisa really wasn't of anymore use unless they planned to really deviate from the story and have her go to Volantis or Volantis getting involved with the north.

[HouseHarrison]

Talisa's death was fitting for such a hated character. It's as if the writers knew most of us don't like her all too much.

I really doubt this was their motivation. Robb was a fan favorite and still is, and yet he gets his corpse mutilated and made into a joke.

[Winter In My Heart]

I really doubt this was their motivation. Robb was a fan favorite and still is, and yet he gets his corpse mutilated and made into a joke.

Robb is a book character and destined to die. Jeyne didn't die in the books so they didn't necessarily have to kill Talisa. I doubt though they killed her that way because they knew (if they knew) so many hated her. If that was the case than anyway she died would have sufficed, at least for me. But yeah they didn't have to kill Talisa but they did, I think that does speak some volumes of either her not being important and/or they knew she was well disliked and saw that as a good out for her.

[Roose Seal]

What bugged me the most is that in the books, Robb is the ultimate underdog, he's a young, inexperienced warlord who still wins every battle, you can't help but root for him, even when he does the grave mistake of falling for the wrong women and in a moment of pure grief, lets himself go. Yes he broke his oath, but given the circumstances, who wouldn't have? It was a character you could relate to, you understood where he came from and the fact that you saw him through Cat's eyes made him all the more endearing and therefore, in the end, tragic.

In the show, he is a cocky idiot who gets involved in a cheesy-ass (and completely unrealistic) love story, dismisses his bannermen constantly, ignores his mother, doesn't really have a good excuse for breaking his oath and shows no regard for common courtesy. After breaking his oath, he not only brings his wife to the wedding that was supposed to be his but has the gall to kiss her right in the middle of the room, in front of the lord he slighted. The show made me feel like the little fucker completely had it coming.

Seeing how they handled that storyline up to ep9, it seems like they knew there was no way they could make that scene into the incredibly emotional and gut-wrenching scene it was in the books so they decided to go for shock value instead.

Yes, a pregnant woman getting repeatedly stabbed in the stomach is shocking. As a matter of fact, it's shocking as fuck; once the shock has passed however, if it happens to a character you really don't give a shit about, you move on pretty fast.

To me it just looked like a cheap emotional stunt designed to get people talking. Clearly, it worked, but I don't think people will still talk about it in 10 years the way people still talk about the SoS chapter.

[teemo]

What bugged me the most is that in the books, Robb is the ultimate underdog, he's a young, inexperienced warlord who still wins every battle, you can't help but root for him, even when he does the grave mistake of falling for the wrong women and in a moment of pure grief, lets himself go. Yes he broke his oath, but given the circumstances, who wouldn't have? It was a character you could relate to, you understood where he came from and the fact that you saw him through Cat's eyes made him all the more endearing and therefore, in the end, tragic.

In the show, he is a cocky idiot who gets involved in a cheesy-ass (and completely unrealistic) love story, dismisses his bannermen constantly, ignores his mother, doesn't really have a good excuse for breaking his oath and shows no regard for common courtesy. After breaking his oath, he not only brings his wife to the wedding that was supposed to be his but has the gall to kiss her right in the middle of the room, in front of the lord he slighted. The show made me feel like the little fucker completely had it coming.

Seeing how they handled that storyline up to ep9, it seems like they knew there was no way they could make that scene into the incredibly emotional and gut-wrenching scene it was in the books so they decided to go for shock value instead.

Yes, a pregnant woman getting repeatedly stabbed in the stomach is shocking. As a matter of fact, it's shocking as fuck; once the shock has passed however, if it happens to a character you really don't give a shit about, you move on pretty fast.

To me it just looked like a cheap emotional stunt designed to get people talking. Clearly, it worked, but I don't think people will still talk about it in 10 years the way people still talk about the SoS chapter.

I agree with everything you wrote here. Wish there was a like button.

[Mammothsbane]

What bugged me the most is that in the books, Robb is the ultimate underdog, he's a young, inexperienced warlord who still wins every battle, you can't help but root for him, even when he does the grave mistake of falling for the wrong women and in a moment of pure grief, lets himself go. Yes he broke his oath, but given the circumstances, who wouldn't have? It was a character you could relate to, you understood where he came from and the fact that you saw him through Cat's eyes made him all the more endearing and therefore, in the end, tragic.

In the show, he is a cocky idiot who gets involved in a cheesy-ass (and completely unrealistic) love story, dismisses his bannermen constantly, ignores his mother, doesn't really have a good excuse for breaking his oath and shows no regard for common courtesy. After breaking his oath, he not only brings his wife to the wedding that was supposed to be his but has the gall to kiss her right in the middle of the room, in front of the lord he slighted. The show made me feel like the little fucker completely had it coming.

Seeing how they handled that storyline up to ep9, it seems like they knew there was no way they could make that scene into the incredibly emotional and gut-wrenching scene it was in the books so they decided to go for shock value instead.

Yes, a pregnant woman getting repeatedly stabbed in the stomach is shocking. As a matter of fact, it's shocking as fuck; once the shock has passed however, if it happens to a character you really don't give a shit about, you move on pretty fast.

To me it just looked like a cheap emotional stunt designed to get people talking. Clearly, it worked, but I don't think people will still talk about it in 10 years the way people still talk about the SoS chapter.

Agreed. It seems like the showrunners wanted to go for a "shock" moment versus the "dread/anticipation" of the book. The feeling that something wasn't "right" about the wedding was completely ignored. Instead, everything was happy-go-lucky until the Frey ninjas started jumping in, slashing throats, and jumping out.

Talisa's death was brutal to watch, but it didn't redeem the terrible character arc she put Robb through.

[Teardrops]

What bugged me the most is that in the books, Robb is the ultimate underdog, he's a young, inexperienced warlord who still wins every battle, you can't help but root for him, even when he does the grave mistake of falling for the wrong women and in a moment of pure grief, lets himself go. Yes he broke his oath, but given the circumstances, who wouldn't have? It was a character you could relate to, you understood where he came from and the fact that you saw him through Cat's eyes made him all the more endearing and therefore, in the end, tragic.

You know, I keep reading this kind of comments and I really can't understand how people see so much difference between show!Robb and book!Robb since they pratically are the same character and do the same mistakes in the +/- same way.

In the show, he is a cocky idiot who gets involved in a cheesy-ass (and completely unrealistic) love story,

Book!Robb gets involved in a cheesy-ass love story ..off-screen ( he fell in love - yep- with the daughter of one of the men of his enemy that, for some inexplicable reason, can spend time with the King alone and married her without permission of their families. )

dismisses his bannermen constantly,

When and where did show!Robb 'dismiss' his bannermen? The rare times we saw him with them he let them talk freely, he listened to them, and try to be just to them whereas book!Robb actually 'dismissed' Lord Karstark refusing to do anything to acknowledge his mother's actions for what they were and doing something -at least symbolically- to placate his bannerman just because he wanted to use Cat's mistake to justify his own.

ignores his mother,

Book!Robb ignores his mother too. He is actually annoyed by her presence.

doesn't really have a good excuse for breaking his oath

Book!Robb excuse was "I choose to break my oath to protect the honor of a girl who chose to sleep with me- even though I can help her in many other ways" this is hardly a good excuse.

and shows no regard for common courtesy. After breaking his oath, he not only brings his wife to the wedding that was supposed to be his but has the gall to kiss her right in the middle of the room, in front of the lord he slighted.

Show!Robb has no regard of common courtesy because at the end of the night, when everything seemed settled he dared to relax and, after talking about his baby, he got emotional and kissed his wife?

Book!Robb wanted to bring Jeyne at the Twins but Cat convinced him not to because she didn't trust him to keep his control but Cat also admits that the absence of the Queen at the marriage was another kind of insult.

The show made me feel like the little fucker completely had it coming.

really? No matter how 'stupid and idiotic' he was, no one deserve that.

[Ugly Little Girl]

Agreed. It seems like the showrunners wanted to go for a "shock" moment versus the "dread/anticipation" of the book. The feeling that something wasn't "right" about the wedding was completely ignored. Instead, everything was happy-go-lucky until the Frey ninjas started jumping in, slashing throats, and jumping out.

Talisa's death was brutal to watch, but it didn't redeem the terrible character arc she put Robb through.

Having read an awful lot of online reaction and watched the episode with some unsullied I have to disagree that the 'dread/anticipation' was ignored. The people I watched with (and many online reviews I've read) felt a sense of disquiet and predicted early in the episode that something was off with the wedding - long before the doors shut.

I'm not sure I would describe Walder's reception of the Starks, his lecherous behaviour towards Tallisa and other insults as 'happy-go-lucky' :D

[Guest]

Honestly, I think show Rob and book Rob are really not very different. The only thing I can think of as an immediate difference is that there is no mention of Rob marrying Talisa because he "dishonored" her, both of them just seem hot and heavy and the marriage is only incidental.

He made the same mistakes he did in the books - didn't tell Edmure why he wanted him to withdraw from the mill, didn't marry a Frey, didn't take Grey Wind's hostility seriously, etc.

[Autopath]

I'm a reader. I was so shocked and upset by the manner of Talisa's death, and the sounds she made, and how her eyes looked as it was happening, that I will probably never be able to watch that part of the scene again. For me, it was the worst part. Perhaps because I wasn't expecting it. If I were a non-reader, I probably would have been shocked by the whole thing, but I had the benefit of knowing the rest of that was coming. Nevertheless, I can't help but wonder how many people were just sitting there staring at the silent credits at the end with a look of shock on their faces. I read it, sure, but it will still haunt me. Michelle Fairley deserves an emmy. I will never forget her face as she was holding Walder Frey's wife hostage, and her face after she cut the girl's throat and just stood there, completely desolate.