Victarion Chainbreaker Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 I think if Dawn were flaming someone would have noticed by now.Sorry for the snark. Actually, J. Stargaryen's post is really good.Off topic: i really want to invert your avatar and call myself J. Wargaryen. I'm not going to, just letting you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 I think if Dawn were flaming someone would have noticed by now.Sorry for the snark. Actually, J. Stargaryen's post is really good.Off topic: i really want to invert your avatar and call myself J. Wargaryen. I'm not going to, just letting you know.Thank you two times. :)---You know, I was looking at the prophecies again and something occurred to me:When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.Maybe: ...Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone Alayne Stone. With Jon as Azor Ahai, and "waking" the (likely metaphorical) dragons probably meaning: childbirth, blood sacrifice, or a combination of both.This obviously gets into a Jon + Sansa scenario and I'm already OT, so I'll just say that I think it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Knute Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 While I'm not entirely convinced of Dawn being metaphorical rather than literal, I do feel the ideas presented for it to be metaphorical are at the least compelling.Here's what sort of keeps me from going 'all-in' on the premise:The Original Lightbringer. The history we've been provided in the text gives us enough detail to understand that Lightbringer was indeed a literal sword. Now, what we don't know yet is after the victory versus the Others in the first Long Night, what happened to Lightbringer? I for one find it hard to believe that a sword belonging to a Hero in such a critical time would just vanish never to be seen again. But, what we do have is this other sword called Dawn. House Dayne has been its caretaker for millenia it seems. The Title Sword of The Morning is such a special title and duty that within their own house the Daynes don't just pass it along by generation, the title is held so dear that only a man worthy enough may even HOLD the title. Now, I'm not perfectly clear on the specifics, but it seems to me that The Sword of the Morning is the 'office' of the person via House Dayne who is charged with its safe-keeping and possibly even seeing that it's presented to AAR. The details for that whole thing and how it works, I don't know, this is just my guess.Another guess I have is that the NW's oath does sort of mirror Lightbringer's "purpose". My hunch is that when the NW was founded some of the elements of the original Azor Ahai's sacrifice(s) were incorporated so as to give each man pride and esprit de corps as it were, but also to represent what AA had given to bring about the end of the Long Night.Now that's not to say that the metaphorical theory is way-off-base, it very well could be true depending on how the facts surrounding Dawn come to bear. Now the other question we must then ask ourselves is: If the metaphorical premise is true, then what's Dawn's purpose if any, and/or what is the significance of the Office of The Sword of the Morning with respect to Dawn? They may indeed be quite separate things but we need more evidence towards both legends before we'll really be able to lean on one theory over another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennedy the Keen Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The Nights Watch is the Lightbringer,It's pretty much in their oaths.Well in theory, lol. They are the sword that defends the realm.This would make Jon, AA reborn.Jon also slays his "lover"(Ygritte) with Lightbringer(nights watch), which is prophesied.But I'm still a believer that Dawn is Lightbringer, because after AA(the last hero) stops the "long night" it becomes the (seriously)"long morning" which is why when a dayne is selected to wield Dawn they call him "the sword of the morning"... The Daynes are just keeping Lightbringer/Dawn warm until the new AA/last hero arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennedy the Keen Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 While I'm not entirely convinced of Dawn being metaphorical rather than literal, I do feel the ideas presented for it to be metaphorical are at the least compelling.Here's what sort of keeps me from going 'all-in' on the premise:The Original Lightbringer. The history we've been provided in the text gives us enough detail to understand that Lightbringer was indeed a literal sword. Now, what we don't know yet is after the victory versus the Others in the first Long Night, what happened to Lightbringer? I for one find it hard to believe that a sword belonging to a Hero in such a critical time would just vanish never to be seen again. But, what we do have is this other sword called Dawn. House Dayne has been its caretaker for millenia it seems. The Title Sword of The Morning is such a special title and duty that within their own house the Daynes don't just pass it along by generation, the title is held so dear that only a man worthy enough may even HOLD the title. Now, I'm not perfectly clear on the specifics, but it seems to me that The Sword of the Morning is the 'office' of the person via House Dayne who is charged with its safe-keeping and possibly even seeing that it's presented to AAR. The details for that whole thing and how it works, I don't know, this is just my guess.Another guess I have is that the NW's oath does sort of mirror Lightbringer's "purpose". My hunch is that when the NW was founded some of the elements of the original Azor Ahai's sacrifice(s) were incorporated so as to give each man pride and esprit de corps as it were, but also to represent what AA had given to bring about the end of the Long Night.Now that's not to say that the metaphorical theory is way-off-base, it very well could be true depending on how the facts surrounding Dawn come to bear. Now the other question we must then ask ourselves is: If the metaphorical premise is true, then what's Dawn's purpose if any, and/or what is the significance of the Office of The Sword of the Morning with respect to Dawn? They may indeed be quite separate things but we need more evidence towards both legends before we'll really be able to lean on one theory over another.The NW and the wall couldn't be the original AAs "sword" because it wasnt created until after the Long Night... It's the AAReborn sword. If Jon is AAReborn. But I still think Dawn is the original Lightbringer but the original Lightbringer ain't what it used to be and has no major significant plot in AAreborns story. IMO Lightbringer is similar to Valyrian Steel but Lightbringer should be 100x more powerful the Valyrian steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Knute Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The NW and the wall couldn't be the original AAs "sword" because it wasnt created until after the Long Night... It's the AAReborn sword. If Jon is AAReborn. But I still think Dawn is the original Lightbringer but the original Lightbringer ain't what it used to be and has no major significant plot in AAreborns story. IMO Lightbringer is similar to Valyrian Steel but Lightbringer should be 100x more powerful the Valyrian steel. I understand/agree, the NW may have been instituted as a result of the Battle for the Dawn. I mean logically it fits. This mysterious threat is over-taking Westeros, this Hero is called upon to fight the Others, he forges a sword and bands an army together, the COTF provide them with some Obsidian so the grunts aren't just helpless. After the battle is won, a council is convened, the NW is formed with the purpose of being on the lookout for the Others (afterall even in the histories, no one really knows what brought their coming about), the COTF agree to provide the NW obsidian every year, etc. Bran (the Builder) built the wall, perhaps he was partnered with AA in the battle and seeing as their seat is closest, it was a natural thing for them to be wards of the NW and even providing men through the Stark line as history has shown. We also have to account for the Magic that is imbued within the Wall that keeps the Others from being able to pass through, which from my understanding is via the COTF as well. The hard part with the theory is Dawn itself. Why doesn't it permeate fire? Surely someone would have noticed if Arthur Dayne's sword did such. Yet, we have no textual reference to it when characters speak of Arthur. As well, what's the connection with the Daynes? Was the original AA a Dornishman, so Dawn was decreed to be kept by their house, did they distinguish themselves in battle or what exactly? Or, is Dawn just a tease and totally unrelated to AA? I myself am not sold on the Metaphorical reference to Lightbringer. I mean I acknowledge it's possible, but in the metaphorical sense, that means that damn near any old sword would do, it's the tempering that's the key. I'm not sure I can buy into that just yet. As I said in my previous post, there's still too much missing information for me to believe in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennedy the Keen Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 @Ser Knute I don't believe the sword Stannis wields is Lightbringer. The prophecy of tPtwP is supposedly linked to AAReborn which links R + L = J and the NW being the metaphorical sword. I think the prophesy are created by prophets(obviously). Who are people albeit magical people but still people. They would use previous events that had similarities to these current/future events. So the prophet use terms from the past to explain the future. Which is why the prophecy mentions a sword, when it could just be a weapon or even army.I still think Dawn is the original Ligjtbringer that the Last hero/AA used to smite the others/great other. It was based down to the daynes after(who knows why, the are of the firstmen) be protect it, when someone worth (author dayne) even wield it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMR Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I think Dawn is Lightbringer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oursisthefury69 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 "I am among those who believe"= Not being able to support your theory on your own without an account with a bunch of posts and implying others wit a similar number feel the same way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I don't think Lightbringer is an actual sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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