[Book Spoilers] Arya and Sandor

[silentwanderer]

I think they do love each other on the show, as much as two characters as damaged as them could love, at this point.

He can't tame her any more than a dog could domesticate a wolf, but Arya can't untame him any more than a wolf could turn a dog savage.

All they can do is pack together and hope for the best.,

Watching The Hound killing the rest of the Frey men while Arya is busy stabbing one, I had a thought that he is Nymeria's proxy while the badass wolf is not around. The lone wolf and the lost hound.

To me, that was scene that sold them as a surrogate father protecting the only kind of surrogate daughter that might ever feel comfortable with him.

As intense as the fire scene was, they were two people running together, holding each other through the worse thing that could happen to them.

At the Frey men scene? They were family, for better or worse.

[Le Cygne]

Arya glanced over her shoulder, but there was nothing behind them but a crow flitting from tree to tree. The only sound was the river.

So I'm back to this. Why can't they put this in the show? They have already been exploring this with Bran. They've come out with other things, like Jaqen outright saying he's a faceless man. It's pretty obvious to many readers this passage wasn't just put there by chance.

Playing down the mysteries and magic is a mistake. Show Arya at least thinking about Nymeria. Give people things to wonder about. That they don't clarify some things in the plot with a simple line here and there, so people are confused, is no excuse for leaving out these things.

[silentwanderer]

I do agree Arya is less "magical" (for lack of a better word) than on the books. The Hound is much more gentle on the show too. They are still firece in their own right, but their dynamic is different somehow: more intimate than it was with Yoren, less complicit than it used to be with Jaqen

[echidna]

I suspect they'll make the fight in the inn a lot about Sandor hearing of Sansa's marriage and that will cause more friction between Sandor and Arya. He might even say that he only saved her because she's Little Bird's Sister.

That would be a catalyst for her walking off and leaving him. She may not even understand how injured he is. I can imagine TV Hound picking an argument to make her leave and then laying down to die.

I think GRRM has a destiny for Sandor. Something religious or magic based which will be a complete turn around on his cynicism.

[Le Cygne]

I suspect they'll make the fight in the inn a lot about Sandor hearing of Sansa's marriage and that will cause more friction between Sandor and Arya. He might even say that he only saved her because she's Little Bird's Sister.

If they did that, show his reaction to the marriage the same way as in the books, there would be a lot of happy fans out there, that's for sure. And spelling out the subtext of why he saved her would be icing on the cake.

[silentwanderer]

I suspect they'll make the fight in the inn a lot about Sandor hearing of Sansa's marriage and that will cause more friction between Sandor and Arya.

Good point. Unlike the books, Sandor hasn't heard about Sansa'a marriage yet, neither has Arya for that matter.

Since Sandor and Arya play the opposite of Tyrion and Sansa, it wouldn't surprise me if this reaction is what finally makes them bond.

[strewth78]

I'd like to see her already reach the house of black and white by seasons end (just).

They say season 4 will likely bleed into books 4 and 5, so having her arrive in braavos will fit with this target.

it would also be great to see Braavos at least briefly at seasons end to get the audience psyched over season 5.

It would also mean the Arya-Sandor arc would peak around season 4, episodes 6-8.

Frankly, they need to add more development at this stage of a season, as typically these have been table setting episodes for the last 2 episodes of each season, and I'd prefer the writers to let some stories peak at different points in the season, rather than having 2 great final episodes.

the books have cliff-hangers and peaks at each chapter, the series should do the same.

But the Arya-Sandor relationship will hopefully be the Jaime-Brienne of season 4.

I don't mean the same kind of relationship, but rather, the highlight of the season.

[silentwanderer]

But the Arya-Sandor relationship will hopefully be the Jaime-Brienne of season 4.

I don't mean the same kind of relationship, but rather, the highlight of the season.

I get what you mean, Sandor and Arya are the parent-child version of what Jaime and Brienne are as man and woman. Both deserving of the highlight spot in their own right.

[Le Cygne]

silentwanderer, again, I think you're missing the Sandor-Sansa subtext. That's the elephant sitting in the room with Sandor and Arya. A quick and dirty search for what Sandor calls Arya and Sansa in ASOS, kind of revealing...

Arya -

this one - 1

Wolf girl - 3

She-wolf - 6

Wolf bitch - 3

the little sister - 1

her bloody sister - 1

Arya - 0

Sansa -

the little sister (indirect) - 1

this one's own sister - 1

your sister - 6

the pretty bird - 1

she - 3

the little bird - 1

a proper little lady - 1

the little bird, your pretty sister - 1

Sansa - 1 (one of the only two times he calls her this in the series)

[silentwanderer]

I get what you mean, Sandor and Arya are the parent-child version of what Jaime and Brienne are as man and woman. Both deserving of the highlight spot in their own right.

I think you're missing the Sandor-Sansa subtext. That's the elephant sitting in the room with Sandor and Arya. A quick and dirty search for what Sandor calls Arya and Sansa in ASOS, kind of revealing...

I think people tend to overstate the "subtext" because of the lack of Sansa's love interests: the fact remains Sandor left King's Landing the same man he was. Sansa's influence no different than Cersei's when it comes to change a man.

It's Arya that Sandor sticks with despite she's an enemy, it's Arya the one he protects despite there's no money in it, it's Arya he risks his life for, Arya the one he grew loyal to, its Arya the one he asked for mercy and it's after Arya that he found peace (whatever meaning you give to the phrasing).

That's the elephant sitting in the room with Sandor and Arya: she eliminates his name from the list, not because of Sansa, but because she grew to know Sandor the man independent from her.

[echidna]

I think people tend to overstate the "subtext" because of the lack of Sansa's love interests: the fact remains Sandor left King's Landing the same man he was. Sansa's influence no different than Cersei's when it comes to change a man.

I'm not so sure of that. I think that, in TV Sandor's case certainly, the King's Joust was the start of Sandor's slow change. It was strongly implied thst no woman or girl before Sansa had given him her favour. That the favour was granted with the permission of the King and Eddard would, I believe, have made it almost a life contract for Sandor who seems to undertake any personal quest to extremes. To be her Champion.

Arya seems to be a combination of a kid sister or niece and a chore he's undertaking. I think he's transferred some of the Champion's commitment to Arya in his own somehat broken way, but Sansa is still the one who gave him the ribbon.

PS I agree that there is more to the Arya and Sandor relationship than there appears to be.

Also, I belueve he never intended to ransom her but was going to ask for a reward. But he said he would sell her to her family because that's what she would expect to here. In many wsys Sandor talks like Robert Baratheon, having been around Robert so much, and has a similar sense of humour

[silentwanderer]

I'm not so sure of that. I think that, in TV Sandor's case certainly, the King's Joust was the start of Sandor's slow change. It was strongly implied thst no woman or girl before Sansa had given him her favour.

You're quoting the books, in the TV show it was Loras who gave Sandor his favour when he called him "Ser" in front of the entire Kingdom, Sansa wasn't clapping less than Renly or Myrcella for svaing his life and I hardly believe this means she changed anything for The Hound.

Arya doesn't have the same dynamic with Sandor that she had with Jaqen, but the point remains she's the one that started his change: Arya is the first person Sandor hang on to, the only one he has went back for time and again despite fire, Freys or Brotherhoods.

[Le Cygne]

Sandor Clegane: As personal bodyguard to King Joffrey, the Hound carried out his commands. He bears no love for his brother Gregor, known as "The Mountain," but has a soft spot for Sansa Stark, a frequent object of Joffrey's cruel whims. The Hound abandoned his post and left King’s Landing when he saw the Blackwater burn.

Sansa Stark: As beautiful as her mother, Sansa grew up dreaming of a courtly world of knights and princes. Unfortunately, her northern naiveté hasn't helped her in King's Landing, where she was routinely abused by her former fiancé, King Joffrey Baratheon. Her vulnerability has also attracted the interests of the Hound and Littlefinger. Sansa’s direwolf, Lady, was destroyed at Queen Cersei's request.

HBO Viewer's Guide

[silentwanderer]

You're talking about shipping - based on a viewer's guide - not the actual show. Whatever "soft spot" The Hound may or may not have for Sansa has nohing to with his dynamic with Arya or what actually happens on the show.

He could write a personal Diary filled with Sansa drawings off-screen, but I'm trying to discuss what actually happened onscreen this season.

[Le Cygne]

I give up. But there is a hint there from the showrunners about why Sandor is being so nice to Arya. So yes, we're all talking about this season.

I fixed the link, it's the official viewer's guide for the show...

[Petyr Patter]

Sandor is still alive in the books. He's the gravedigger at Quiet Isle, but it's dubious whether he's going to be reintroduced. Anyway, they have to keep the parting the same as in the books in case GRRM does bring him back, because his status is unconfirmed.

I'm 50/50 on whether or not Sandor gets reintroduced, but I'm 90% certain that the "Hound" is gone, and not just the helmet. People think Clegane might re-emerge as a fighting champion for the Starks or the Faith. I think he has decided to stop fighting and killing. If he does reemerge, it might be as a wandering brother, preaching peace and mercy of the 7.

[echidna]

You're quoting the books, in the TV show it was Loras who gave Sandor his favour when he called him "Ser" in front of the entire Kingdom, Sansa wasn't clapping less than Renly or Myrcella for svaing his life ...

Oops, you're right there.

Although I do think that Sansa's standing to clap at the end of the joust could be taken by The Hound to be for him.

I also suspect that Sandor is partially interested in Sansa as an unobtainable ideal (whether as a friend, woman, dream). Arya is right in front of him and seems to be a pseudo kid sister. He may be showing care for Arya but I wonder how emotionally engaged he is in the Arya reality over the Sansa daydream/myth

[silentwanderer]

If its any help, I don't think the Hound is smitten with Arya.

What they have is emotionally engaging in a parent-child sense, Arya is changing him like no other character does because it should've never been this way given how they started in the TV series.

[BadassUrukHai]

I agree, not only The Hound was the only man who helped Ned when the mob attacked him at his execution but, as of this season,. Arya is the only Stark girl who knows his personal story, as far as Sandor is concerned.

For all he knows, Arya is the only one who knows what his brother did to him. The Hound doesn't know Sansa heard the story too.

What? Arya never knew his story... Sansa did. Sandor personally said to Sansa how he got his scars (:P)... And he never really helped Ned during his execution...

I think you need to read some books, man

[silentwanderer]

Arya never knew his story... Sansa did. Sandor personally said to Sansa how he got his scars

Once again, you're not talking about what actually happened on the show: those of us who watched "The Rains of Castemere" this season know that Arya herself told The Hound how she learned his story after they stole the wagon from the farmer on their way to the Twins.

At no point before or after the "Mysha" episode Arya so much as hinted that her sister heard the story too. The show changed it so that Littefinger - and not Sandor - would reveal it in season 1 ("Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things" episode).