Cersei and Jaime

[Black Drogon: The Dread]

From Jaime's perspective, Cersei convinced him to join the Kingsguard thinking it would bring them to Kings Landing together when she married Rhaegar, letting them continue the twincest. But she had to know Kingsguard were disinherited of lands and titles...and that Jaime was the heir to the Rock. Is it possible she simply wanted to get Jaime out of the line of succession? I mean...They do, uh, make love to each other, but it seems like Cersei's been fucking Jaime the whole time. Just a random thought I had. She knows that Tywin hates Tyrion, and would never leave him Lord of Casterly Rock, so just who did she think the Rock was going to fall to?

[mrunderhill]

From Jaime's perspective, Cersei convinced him to join the Kingsguard thinking it would bring them to Kings Landing together when she married Rhaegar, letting them continue the twincest. But she had to know Kingsguard were disinherited of lands and titles...and that Jaime was the heir to the Rock. Is it possible she simply wanted to get Jaime out of the line of succession? I mean...They do, uh, make to each other, but it seems like Cersei's been fucking Jaime the whole time. Just a random thought I had. She knows that Tywin hates Tyrion, and would never leave him Lord of Casterly Rock, so just who did she think the Rock was going to fall to?

Yes Cersei and even Tyrion deep down have always been trying to get Casterly Rock ahead of Jaime. When Jaime mentions what he would be giving up she question what he loves more. Jaime was a tool or an obstacle in Cersei's path. There was never any real love from her part.

[Corvo Attano]

Yeah, she probably did want it for herself. That was probably one of several reasons for convincing him to join the KG. although, Aerys main reason for doing it was to piss off Tywin (which was an astronomically stupid thing to do).

ETA: What I wonder is, at the time of his death, who did Tywin intend as his heir? Jaime & Tyrion were out, and he was planning to wed Cersei to Willas Tyrell (the heir to Highgarden), so she was out as well (you never wed an heir to another heir). Did he intend for Kevan to get the rock?

[Winterz]

It is interesting but I think not. She genuinely loved Jaime and while she could still pull that sort of stunt, I think she knew very well that CR would never fall to her, in fact, crazy as she was, she probably thought Tyrion could inherit it and I'm sure she'd not be okay with that.

[Black Drogon: The Dread]

Aerys definitely had his own motivations.

Yes Cersei and even Tyrion deep down have always been trying to get Casterly Rock ahead of Jaime. When Jaime mentions what he would be giving up she question what he loves more. Jaime was a tool or an obstacle in Cersei's path. There was never any real love from her part.

I am not sure if there was never any love, I think there was, in fact. But I do believe that she schemed to get him out of her way. She thinks she is Tywin with tits, but she's more like Aerys with tits.

[mrunderhill]

Aerys definitely had his own motivations.

I am not sure if there was never any love, I think there was, in fact. But I do believe that she schemed to get him out of her way. She thinks she is Tywin with tits, but she's more like Aerys with tits.

Nope if you look back at Cersei's flash backs, her dreams etc Jaime is never really part of them. There may have been some affection, but no more than most knights feel for their horse.

[Black Drogon: The Dread]

It is interesting but I think not. She genuinely loved Jaime and while she could still pull that sort of stunt, I think she knew very well that CR would never fall to her, in fact, crazy as she was, she probably thought Tyrion could inherit it and I'm sure she'd not be okay with that.

You think it is just another example of her schemes being terribly planned?

[Winterz]

Nope if you look back at Cersei's flash backs, her dreams etc Jaime is never really part of them. There may have been some affection, but no more than most knights feel for their horse.

Lol, I think that's rather unfair. She risked her own neck on a daily-basis sex with her brother.

You think it is just another example of her schemes being terribly planned?

She was 16, I doubt she had any master plan going on.

[Morienthar]

ETA: What I wonder is, at the time of his death, who did Tywin intend as his heir? Jaime & Tyrion were out, and he was planning to wed Cersei to Willas Tyrell (the heir to Highgarden), so she was out as well (you never wed an heir to another heir). Did he intend for Kevan to get the rock?

I think he was still hung over on Jaime,If anything it would have been Devan who got Casterly Rock.

[Black Drogon: The Dread]

Lol, I think that's rather unfair. She risked her own neck on a daily-basis sex with her brother.

She was 16, I doubt she had any master plan going on.

Another master plan, you mean? There is the whole plan about keeping them together already in evidence.

[mrunderhill]

Lol, I think that's rather unfair. She risked her own neck on a daily-basis sex with her brother.

So? Hardly means she loved him. Having sex with someone does not mean you love them. Virtually every time she initiated sex with him she wanted to use him for something whether it be to horn Robert, give her "the best genetic children", kill Arya, give up Casterly Rock or become her Hand. Jaime in the end begins to realise this and that is why he rejects her. If she had come to him, with the sole intention of being with him, then he would not have rejected her at Kings Landing.

[mrunderhill]

I think he was still hung over on Jaime,If anything it would have been Devan who got Casterly Rock.

He intended for Jaime to get Caterly Rock. Despite what Cersei or Tyrion may have thought, Tywin never changed his mind, never made any contingency plans and never accepted Jaime was not his heir. The Rock was going to go to Jaime.

[jon stark I]

I think she thought about her childrens future.Look at the facts Cersei believes she will marry Rheagar but what will happen to the second or third son?First son will be crown prince but second and third sons will be tools so if Jaime is out of the way then that leaves Tyrion and Cersei.Tywin hates Tyrion and he won't marry after this age so there is only Cersei left but she is Queen so one of her children will be lord of Casterly Rock by her mothers right.I think she also wanted to keep Jaime close and well away from any other women she is obsessed with everything belonging to her.

[Winterz]

So? Hardly means she loved him. Having sex with someone does not mean you love them. Virtually every time she initiated sex with him she wanted to use him for something whether it be to horn Robert, give her "the best genetic children", kill Arya, give up Casterly Rock or become her Hand. Jaime in the end begins to realise this and that is why he rejects her. If she had come to him, with the sole intention of being with him, then he would not have rejected her at Kings Landing.

Jaime realizes that she wasn't as obsessed for him as he was for her, that's just it. I never said she was crazy for him, but you're claiming she only intended to use him. Having sex only? Yeah it doesn't mean love but constantly risking her life to have sex with him for no reason whatsoever? No, that's love alright. And how she only intended to have children from the frequent sex, that's just pure speculation from your part. She doesn't show any signs of wanting more children before Joffrey's death and yet they still had plenty of sex.

Another master plan, you mean? There is the whole plan about keeping them together already in evidence.

Yes because a teenager planning to be forever united with her beloved one is such a master plan. How many teen girls haven't thought about this at some point.

[mrunderhill]

Jaime realizes that she wasn't as obsessed for him as he was for her, that's just it. I never said she was crazy for him, but you're claiming she only intended to use him. Having sex only? Yeah it doesn't mean love but constantly risking her life to have sex with him for no reason whatsoever? No, that's love alright. And how she only intended to have children from the frequent sex, that's just pure speculation from your part. She doesn't show any signs of wanting more children before Joffrey's death and yet they still had plenty of sex.

Risking your life to have sex with someone is just lust. She said herself it made things more exciting. I never said she only intended to have children from when they had sex, but it was part of it. Every time Cersei had sex with him, she wanted him to do something for her. She was not quite risking her life, but was taking an awful big risk in having sex with Lancel? Does she love him too?

[Winterz]

She was not quite risking her life, but was taking an awful big risk in having sex with Lancel? Does she love him too?

What exactly was the risk? At that time, she's a widow and she pretty much controls the entire Red Keep (servants, guardsmen, everyone) so what really is the risk? It's made pretty clear that Lancel and the Kettleblacks are but tools and they're not Jaime.

Now if Robert found out that she was sleeping with her own brother, he'd soon discover (or Stannis would be quick to remind him I'm sure) that the children were not his either and the word of incest would soon spread, not from the word of an alleged "Usuper" but from the actual King.

[nara]

Nope if you look back at Cersei's flash backs, her dreams etc Jaime is never really part of them. There may have been some affection, but no more than most knights feel for their horse.

Actually, she does think about him an awful lot. She tells Sansa about how Jaime insisted that he be in the delivery room, she tells Tommen about how great a knight he is, she thinks about him when talking to Taena, she thinks about how Joffrey was conceived, and remembers how she slept with him on the morning of her wedding, etc. He wasn't part of her dreams for the future because she knew it was impossible for them to be together publicly.

That being said, I'm not sure if she intended to steal Casterly Rock from him or not. She certainly believes that Tywin should see her as his heir--we see that in a lot of her inner monologue. However, at the time Jaime joined the KG, Cersei was living in KL and still hoping to become queen if and when Elia died. Therefore, she wouldn't really have been able to be the Lady of Casterly Rock. That is why I believe she convinced Jaime to join the KG more as a means to keep him with her and to prevent him from marrying/loving any other woman than as a way to steal his inheritance.

Incidentally, Tyrion, who hates her and has every reason to think ill of her, does not seem to doubt that she loves Jaime. For example, when Tywin tells her she will have to remarry, he thinks to himself that she wants to marry Jaime. To me, that supports the love theory.

[Dragonstar]

I think Cersei is conniving but not that conniving. She asked him to join the Kingsguard because she wanted him close to her. Beyond that, maybe she thought whatever children she'd have with Jaime would inherit the Rock, and that Jaime would probably want that.

[six]

Both. She wanted to be with him, but she also needed to get him out of the way to increase the chances of CR being hers. She manipulated him in that case like she did countless times, it wasn't different.

As for Cersei loving Jaime... She loves him, but like you love something you own. He's the man-part of her, the person she should have been, but she only loves him as long as he allows himself to be manipulated and doesn't become an obstacle. And she doesn't respect him, at all. It's definitely love, but a twisted and possessive kind of love.

I think Cersei is conniving but not that conniving. She asked him to join the Kingsguard because she wanted him close to her. Beyond that, maybe she thought whatever children she'd have with Jaime would inherit the Rock, and that Jaime would probably want that.

Oh no, she is just that conniving.

[jons nissa]

Both. She wanted to be with him, but she also needed to get him out of the way to increase the chances of CR being hers. She manipulated him in that case like she did countless times, it wasn't different.

As for Cersei loving Jaime... She loves him, but like you love something you own. He's the man-part of her, the person she should have been, but she only loves him as long as he allows himself to be manipulated and doesn't become an obstacle. And she doesn't respect him, at all. It's definitely love, but a twisted and possessive kind of love.

Oh no, she is just that conniving.

i agree completely with the first part of this. cersei's concept of love is very twisted and one sided. but regarding cersei being conniving, i do think it's early in her arc for such plotting especially given at the time she still thought she would marry rhaegar. also, while she knows her father hates tyrion, tywin had not yet disinherited him yet and she could not anticipate such a move, imo. i don't think she was plotting for casterly rock just plotting to keep her lover at her side.