Spies VS Traitors: Big Brother Part 3

[Ramsay Gimp]

There isn't anything going on here more complex then countries with close ties to the US not wanting to get involved in this bullshit with Snowden.

Nonsense. "Not getting involved" would mean letting the plane fly, not violating diplomatic immunity and forcing a head of State to land

[Ramsay Gimp]

What concrete reasons do you have to present that would convince me as to otherwise?

And do you actually believe that any thuggery that may or may not be employed by this administration is somehow unique to them? Putin's a thug. Merkel's a thug. Even Françoise Hollande can be a thug. Politics, unfortunately, makes it necessary to act like a thug sometimes.

It's called common sense. Snowden's wanted by the American government - none of these EU countries have a real interest in either catching him or assisting him. Forcing the plane to land is an extraordinary step - not something they would do without pressure. How does Putin's undeniable status as a thug in any way excuse Obama? Is that the standard we are using now?

[Guest]

This is related to quinoa somehow. Everyone knows that quinoa provides all essential amino acids and that the best quinoa comes from Bolivia. Snowden is a distraction.

[Shryke]

Nonsense. "Not getting involved" would mean letting the plane fly, not violating diplomatic immunity and forcing a head of State to land

No, not getting involved means not letting the plane land in your country or having anything to do with a plane that may or may not be transporting a man one of your allies is looking for.

Maybe the problem here is you think they forced the plane to land. They did no such thing. Not even Bolivia is claiming that. They simply said "you can't come here" and the plane was forced to land to refuel somewhere else.

All the countries here did (other then Austria obviously) was go "Fuck no, we don't want this headache".

[Shryke]

It was in regards to how it fit into the narrative of this being something of a colonialistic issue (as first stated by The Great Unwashed).

It hasn't been up for any debate on that account that I've seen.

To your earlier post, I would simply say that economics being in part an undercurrent to this does not necessitate a colonialist framing to the issue.

Economic sanctions for one: Nearly 50% of Russia's machinery is imported (particularly from Germany), and while that may not be the most effective tactic in recent memory, it is surely an effort.

Also, many people forget how dependent Russia is on many of the former Soviet Socialist Republics, Ukraine most of all. Taking away naval rights in the Crimea was a step in the right direction, but more could have been done in Central Asia that would have sent a clear message to Russia.

There have been plenty of instances where a nation was brought to heel short of war. Why wasn't more done to limit Russia's actions? Because, as I mentioned in an earlier post, most of Europe's energy supplies come from Russia.

I don't think it's quite that simple. Russia is large and fairly powerful and economically integrated with it's neighbours, making overt actions against Russia dicey to begin with. And Russia was, at least in part, flexing it's military muscles to remind everyone, especially their neighbours, that they still exist and that their sphere of influence still exists in their mind. Which makes intervention even more dicey.

And no one, quite frankly, gave enough of a shit about the Georgians to risk much to help them.Which was, I'd say, part of the point for Russia.

[Gramsci]

It's called common sense. Snowden's wanted by the American government - none of these EU countries have a real interest in either catching him or assisting him. Forcing the plane to land is an extraordinary step - not something they would do without pressure. How does Putin's undeniable status as a thug in any way excuse Obama? Is that the standard we are using now?

So you focus on Putin and act as if I was making him into a standard, while completely ignoring the fact that I mentioned two other politicians, one of which (Hollande) is notoriously meek?

No, Putin is not the standard, nor does it excuse Obama. What does excuse Obama, and many other historically controversial political decisions (We can talk about the Embargo Act of 1807 if you want to get REALLY dry), is the fact that leaders do what they have to do. Did you know about the attack on Bin Laden in Pakistan as it unfolded? No. Do you have any idea how many other issues are probably being batted around behind closed doors that we have no idea about?

It is ridiculous that people want to accuse anyone of being a thug when the whole world is full of them, often out of necessity. Leaders do what must be done. If you personally believe this Snowden issue is overblown, fine. You want to describe the current administration as thuggish? That's fine, too. But don't do so with some naive belief that this isn't how the world works.

[snake]

So what you're are saying is that our leaders a bunch of fucking cunts and that is about all we can hope to get?? Lovely.

That being said I do agree that all the outrage some of us are feeling is a bit ridiculous. While there are some wonderful domestic social advances that are happening around us, the solidification of the security state does seem inevitable and most people really don't seem to care. Best to go about our daily business and have the odd chuckle when the state gets caught with it's britches down. In reality it is about all we can do. :cheers:

[ThinkerX]

And then we have the likes of this:

http://www.today.com/news/teen-charged-held-months-over-terroristic-facebook-threat-6C10542658

Best watch what you say on the net or you could be the next one sitting for months on end in a prison cell, deprived of due process.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Well, if anyone is dumb enough to post, "I think I’ma shoot up a kindergarten. And watch the blood of the innocent rain down. And eat the beating heart of one of them.”, I don't have much sympathy for them.

[Opisthokont]

Both the EU-US passenger name record (PNR) and the terrorist financial tracking programme (TFTP) agreements are currently up for annual review.

A team from the European Commission will meet with US officials in Washington on Monday (8 July) for a pre-scheduled evaluation to determine if the Americans are respecting the terms of the agreements.

But the routine event comes in the context of revelations that US intelligence services snoop on EU citizens' Internet data and bug EU embassies, creating a toxic atmosphere.

EUobserver understands that EU home affairs commissioner Cecilia Malmstrom spelled out her concerns in a letter sent on Thursday to Janet Napolitano, the US homeland security chief, and David Cohen, the US treasury's terrorism and financial intelligence director.

According to a source, the letter warns that, given the negative climate, unless the US fully co-operates on PNR and TFTP compliance, there is a risk that European politicians will push to scrap the treaties.

http://euobserver.co...ustice/120779

I really, really hope that both the SWIFT treaty and the PNR data sharing are not only suspended but permanently cancelled, they were horrible ideas to begin with. But considering that the commission are the ones who were pushing the parliament to approve of both treaties in the first place I don't expect that to happen.

But it would be so nice if once, just once, someone had to realise that assuming the right to spy on everyone everywhere may actually make other people less likely to want to cooperate with you.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Bolivia has said it would grant Snowden asylum. I'm not surprised. It will be interesting to see if/how he gets there.

[Guest]

Bolivia has said it would grant Snowden asylum. I'm not surprised. It will be interesting to see if/how he gets there.

Where are you seeing Bolivia? I'm seeing Venezuala and maybe Nicaragua.

[Shryke]

I wonder if he can make it to Central/South America without going through somewhere that will extradite him.

[Guest]

I wonder if he can make it to Central/South America without going through somewhere that will extradite him.

I suspect that there are direct flights from Moscow to Caracas. But I have no idea how this stuff plays out, so maybe it's far from that simple?