GRRM statement about the White Walkers and use of ice

[Kienn]

The Night's watch was originally an order of White walkers, who built the wall to defend from the encroaching humans. Beyond the wall it was always Night, thus the name for the Night's watch.

Unfortunately one of the early Night's Watch commanders(Bael) fell in love with a human girl, the daughter of the Stark in Winterfell and brought her back with him. Their son was Brandon the builder, who became the Stark in Winterfel after his grandfather Stark defeated the others at the wall to rescue his daughter who died in childbirth and made her father promise to raise Brandon as his own...

So the Stark did so, but he told his grandson a different story, that the Night's Watch was an order of men, who defended their wall from the others to the north. Brandon grew up believing this, and started the tradition of adding to the wall - he possibly even used his magic to ward against the white walkers...

[Night'sQueen]

The OP's found an interesting quote.

I'm surprised no one has pointed out that there has been a long-running discussion, effectively a forum-within-a-forum, detailing a set of theories called the Heresy. Among them are the idea that the Wall is not so much a defensive structure but a magical barrier that divides worlds, and that the Night Watch originally had a very different purpose. The idea that the Others originally built the Wall is quite compatible with the Heresy.

HERESY 50 is recommended as a starting point.

Thanks for pointing this out. I have not yet explored Heresy threads although I've heard them mentioned. The way you describe the philosophy it sounds like EXACTLY what I was suggesting.

[Eyron]

Hey, this thread sounds a lot like the first heresy threadlet.

Back then I made my theory about the Wall being built for the protection of the Old races, the CotF, giants etc. A place only for the Old gods, where the weirwoods would be safe from further destruction, the Wall being the last line of defence from the south.

The CotF broke the Arm of Dorne, they swamped the Neck trying to stop men from coming north, and then they built the Wall. With Ice magic, and blood supposedly. I think the Last Hero agreed to a deal, and gave up those kingdoms of the First men to the CotF. And then helped build the Wall and protect it from the south. And to protect the Black Gate from people wanting to get north of the Wall.

When the Wall was built there were onle one castle, the Nightfort. There were only one passage through, the black gate. No other castles and no other gates.

The newer castles are only half as old as castle black. Who patrolled the Wall back then, or didn't they? And what happened approximately 4000 years ago that could have made life at the Wall change so drastically? And why and when did the Andals start manning the Nights Watch. These things I would like to know.

[Father of Hosts]

Hey, this thread sounds a lot like the first heresy threadlet.

Back then I made my theory about the Wall being built for the protection of the Old races, the CotF, giants etc. A place only for the Old gods, where the weirwoods would be safe from further destruction, the Wall being the last line of defence from the south.

The CotF broke the Arm of Dorne, they swamped the Neck trying to stop men from coming north, and then they built the Wall. With Ice magic, and blood supposedly. I think the Last Hero agreed to a deal, and gave up those kingdoms of the First men to the CotF. And then helped build the Wall and protect it from the south. And to protect the Black Gate from people wanting to get north of the Wall.

When the Wall was built there were onle one castle, the Nightfort. There were only one passage through, the black gate. No other castles and no other gates.

The newer castles are only half as old as castle black. Who patrolled the Wall back then, or didn't they? And what happened approximately 4000 years ago that could have made life at the Wall change so drastically? And why and when did the Andals start manning the Nights Watch. These things I would like to know.

So when the COTF went north, did they somehow come into contact with the white walkers or were the white walkers driven back with them?

[Inquisitor Glokta]

this fits in with my theory that the White Walkers were actually (somewhat) created by the CoTF as a weapon against the First Men. If the White Walkers put up The Wall, that COULD have been to protect the remaining COTF

This also explains why the wights attacked and tried to kill Bran, the next greenseer for the CoTF!!!! They must be working together. It makes all so much sense now.

edit:

The fact that wights (and possibly others) cannot enter the cave of the CoTF, much like the wall (CH can't pass), can also only be explained by those 2 factions working together!

/sarcasm off

[Ygrain]

This also explains why the wights attacked and tried to kill Bran, the next greenseer for the CoTF!!!! They must be working together. It makes all so much sense now.

edit:

The fact that wights (and possibly others) cannot enter the cave of the CoTF, much like the wall (CH can't pass), can also only be explained by those 2 factions working together!

/sarcasm off

Well, I don't think they are working together, either, but if they do, what better way to persuade Bran that CoTF are the good guys?

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Well, I don't think they are working together, either, but if they do, what better way to persuade Bran that CoTF are the good guys?

And risk him getting killed by accident? I don't think so, way to risky...

Imo (and that's only my opinion ofc):

It is more likely, that Ned Stark was a secret hidden Targaeryen who warged Septa Lemore before his death, who also happens to be Siro Forell, Jaqen and a hidden Targaeryen,

than the theory, that the wall was built by the others, to keep the humans out. Because it works so damn good at that...

They were also clever enough to leave ~100.000 humans north off the wall and didn't bother much with hunting them for the past 8000 years...

[Eyron]

So when the COTF went north, did they somehow come into contact with the white walkers or were the white walkers driven back with them?

That depends on what the White Walkers are, and I don't know. If they are part of the Old races, a creation of the CotF, or something else.

However, the CotF were already in the far north at that time I think. The last hero had to seek for their secret cities a long time, and his company did not receive any protection or help from the CotF, who supposedly were watching all of this in silence. He went into the wastelands, wherever that is, but it sounds like the far north to me. Which would mirror Bran's journey to the cave, except Bran had help.

The White Walkers could be the Children's warriors, or another Old race, or First men gone rogue. But it's interesting to note that the CotF are, according to themselves, dwindling at this beginning of the long winter. And there is no indication that they would have any trouble surviving winter, the caves under the weirwoods are warm and there is plenty of food, water etc.

It is a mystery to me but it's interesting to look at this story from different perspectives.

[Edd fetch me the boo box]

On the whole "Others built the Wall" argument, I have one thing to say: GRRM says men built the Wall, so men built the Wall. He has never intentionally misled people with information given outside of the books. If he doesn't want people to know something or wants to keep something ambiguous, he says absolutely nothing one way or the other. Therefore, when GRRM says "X did Y", you better god damn believe that Y was done by X.

Thank you, good night. That argument truly was 20 posts too long.

[Spinebreaker]

Yes, we haven't seen the Others fail to cross the wall yet. The only force we know can't cross the wall is their army of wights. Its what makes it unlikely their masters the Others, built the wall.

Only by assuming the design and purpose of the wall. We know of 2 things that can't pass the wall, Wights, and Warging 'energy' for want of a better term. The barrier of the wall seems to 'interfere' if a warg and their animal are on seperate sides. This makes me think magic of all kinds cannot cross the wall. What if the wights not being able to pass is a side effect of the wall's construction? If your supposition is that the Others wouldn't build a wall the wights can't pass as the Wights are their core shock troops... What if the Wights are simply 'guard dogs', and have no reason to cross the wall? Or if the walls 'magical interference' was not even considered when the wall was built.

[Ser Oswell]

Didn't Bran the builder build the Wall?

[Mayura]

To my opinion, the Others are similar to the fairies/elves of the Icelandic folklore. I don't remember where exactly it is stated in the books, but I remember reading someone who says the Others are "always there", that the men can just not see them, which reminds me a lot of the hidden people of Iceland who are invisible to men's eyes unless they want to be seen. The fact they are taking Craster's babies remind me as well of the "changelings" stories, of fairies taking human babies into their world for reproduction purpose - to bring some new blood to the specie (and we know from the NK's story that humans and Others can interbreed). Also, the fact they are sensitive to one specific thing (dragon glass) is a further reminder of the fairies who are weakened by another substance: iron.

Anyhow, to my opinion: the Others are indeed an intelligent, civilised race that I consider to be alike to Ice Fairies of the folklore: they are described as beautiful, they have their own language that sounds like ice (natural element), they have the capacity to forge armors/weapons from ice, they seem to be invisible to the human eye unless they want to, they abduct babies.

The most interesting is that both the Others and the COTF can be linked with the different categories of the Icelandic Fairies:

• The Others are like the "High Fairies": in the folk stories, they are the fairies who are the closest to men in appearance and who have the most authority. They dress well and they have great armies under their command.
  
• The COTF are like the "Little People" who are, as their name indicate, smaller than human beings, and they are mostly spirits of the woods (fawns etc)
  
• There is a third catagorie which is the category of "spirits" and quite bad lesser creatures who lurk in the water (for example) to make people loose their way and drown. The only parallel I can see in the books are the wights, whose purpose seem to be to kill men. It could also explain Patchface's "dead men under water"
  

The faeries relationships with men are usually based on agreements, but they remain more powerful in the end.

Oh well, you get the point, I think the Others, the Giants, the COTF, the wights and so on are the different categories of Faeries from the Icelandic/Nordic folklore :-) The Nordic folklore involves Faeries and dragons, and Iceland is often referred to as the "land of ice and fire". Hence why I think these magical creatures have been inspired by the Nordic/Icelandic mythology.

[noSer]

It's Vonnegutesque Ice Nine ;)

Totally stole my thunder on this one. That's precisely what i thought off right away, but Cats Cradle is my favorite book of all time (until WoW if its as good as i expect....the set up has everything needed to make WoW matching or surpassing SoS). If you've never read Vonnegut go but that book its amazing and after 6000 pages of ASOIAF a 300 page book should seem like light reading lol

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Hey, this thread sounds a lot like the first heresy threadlet.

Back then I made my theory about the Wall being built for the protection of the Old races, the CotF, giants etc. A place only for the Old gods, where the weirwoods would be safe from further destruction, the Wall being the last line of defence from the south.

The CotF broke the Arm of Dorne, they swamped the Neck trying to stop men from coming north, and then they built the Wall. With Ice magic, and blood supposedly. I think the Last Hero agreed to a deal, and gave up those kingdoms of the First men to the CotF. And then helped build the Wall and protect it from the south. And to protect the Black Gate from people wanting to get north of the Wall.

Ideas like this are at the heart of the early Heresy threads, and they are as full of holes as Myrish lace. The idea that the Wall was built to protect the North from the South is incompatible with the fact that the forces defending the Wall have always been recruited from the areas south of it. It would be analogous to the French building the Maginot Line to protect France from Germany, then requiring the Germans to man it. (Don't worry- we'll make them swear an oath!) Not to mention the fact that the Wall doesn't protect the North from the South. Men can move north at will.

We're also told that the First Men and the CotF worked together to repel the Andal invasion at the Neck. All the folks who want to be "contrarian" and portray the CotF as enemies of the FM conveniently forget that.

When the Wall was built there were onle one castle, the Nightfort. There were only one passage through, the black gate. No other castles and no other gates.

The Nightfort was indeed the first castle, but the idea that there were no gates but the Black Gate never made sense. The Black Gate is down a well. You could never take a patrol of horsemen through it. Being able to patrol the lands north of the Wall is vital to its defense. The Black Gate is simply a secret postern gate. And it's not necessary to defend it from men who want to go north. Only men of the Watch can open it.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The First Men supposedly had the help of the CotF to build the Wall. The CotF call themselves "those who sing the song of earth". That would seem to imply that the Wall is actually built with Earth magic which can either repel or trap Ice magic. That's why the Others can't pass. (As to the claim that we've never seen the Wall defeat a White Walker, I would point out that no White Walkers have been sighted south of the Wall since it's been built.)

To get back to the OP, the White Walker's armor is undoubtedly some form of ice. They seem to be able to walk on snow without leaving tracks, which could be a result of ice manipulation. We really haven't seen or heard of anything else. (I've always assumed those ice spikes that other dreamers were impaled on in Bran's dream were metaphorical, not physical. The Others seem to have potent magical defenses against Greenseers.)

[Eyron]

Ibbison, I am not interested in rehashing everything you and me have already discussed, but two things I need to say.

I didn't say the CotF were enemies to the FM, I said that they built the Wall together. Just like they defended the Neck together. If you are talking about someone else's theory, why don't you say so.

If the idea of the Wall was not as a defence from the north, why would you need to bring patrols through from the south?

It's true there probably is no need to protect the black gate since it's warded. So there is another reason for it being on the site of the Nightfort, or the Nightfort being at the black gate. The more important point of it is that only NW men can pass. Other men were not allowed and some magic supposedly can't pass from north to south. What I think is that the Wall has different purposes. Not only keeping the White Walkers from coming south.

I am not saying that this theory has to be it, merely as I said it's interesting to look at the story from different perspectives.

[Light a wight tonight]

and that would explain the tons of white walkers around the home of the COTF where brain is i guess..

That's wights, not white walkers. The number of white walkers may not be great.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Ibbison, I am not interested in rehashing everything you and me have already discussed, but two things I need to say.

I'm not aware, or do not remember, any previous discussions. Have you changed your name, or have I forgotton? (It was not my intention to restart old conversations here.)

I didn't say the CotF were enemies to the FM, I said that they built the Wall together. Just like they defended the Neck together.

If they were not enemies, why would the CotF need protection from First Men? The Wall was built long before the Andals arrived.

If the idea of the Wall was not as a defence from the north, why would you need to bring patrols through from the south?

It makes military sense. When the Romans built Hadrian's Wall (which the aSoIaF Wall is based on), they didn't hide behind it. It wasn't the front line; it was the backstop for the forward defense. (Edward Luttwak's The Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire is a wonderful explanation of Roman defense works and how they were used.)

[Light a wight tonight]

It's Vonnegutesque Ice Nine ;)

Cute, but Ice Nine converts all other water to Ice Nine. As long as the Wall's been there it should have done that to all the water on Planetos by now.

[A Bogus Pope]

Arm of Dorne and the doom of Valyria sound a lot like like natural cataclysms and processes we have had on our planet. Rills and especially bogs in the neck are all can be explained with what we know about surface of a planet similar to our.

Although our ancestors could've attributed everything above and myriad other stuff such as dawn, rains etc. to supernatural, we know better.

My point is that we don't have to believe in magical origins of EVERY event or place in ASOIAF. Evenmore to those analogous to our world.

Excuse me for my English.