Ser Edmure Tully Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Okay, so the Hand of the King is meant to be the second most powerful man in the kingdoms, second only to the king.Does he actually have any real power though? Like his power seems to be only on an administrative level, implementing the King's wishes.Even the saying "What the King dreams, the Hand builds" has this connotation. What the Hand builds is subject to what the King desires. He has no real decision making capacity over the realm like the Lord Paramount does over his region. The Hand of the King has no real independence in decision making, like a Lord Paramount does over his region. I imagine someone like Jon Arryn or Tywin Lannister as Hands had much more power than would be traditional for the office of the Hand of the King because the Kings they served were either disinterested or incompetent. What my point is I guess, is when you have a competent King, like say Jahaerys (spelling?) I the Conciliator, what does the Hand of the King actually do? Imagine if Baelor Breakspear had become King, what would his hand have actually had to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Glokta Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Okay, so the Hand of the King is meant to be the second most powerful man in the kingdoms, second only to the king.Does he actually have any real power though? Like his power seems to be only on an administrative level, implementing the King's wishes.Even the saying "What the King dreams, the Hand builds" has this connotation. What the Hand builds is subject to what the King desires. He has no real decision making capacity over the realm like the Lord Paramount does over his region. The Hand of the King has no real independence in decision making, like a Lord Paramount does over his region.I imagine someone like Jon Arryn or Tywin Lannister as Hands had much more power than would be traditional for the office of the Hand of the King because the Kings they served were either disinterested or incompetent.What my point is I guess, is when you have a competent King, like say Jahaerys (spelling?) I the Conciliator, what does the Hand of the King actually do? Imagine if Baelor Breakspear had become King, what would his hand have actually had to do?It depends on both the king and the hand.Take Aerys II and Tywin for example:It's said throughout the Seven kingdoms, that Tywin was the one ruling the realm and i can actually believe that.Now let's look at Joff and Tywin:Who made ALL the decision? Well, i guess it's Tywin again.If you have a weak king and a strong hand, the hand holds almost all the power. Of course the king can overrule the hands decisions, if he finds out about them ;)Strong king and weak hand is pretty obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindchap Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I agree with nyos, it really depends on the King and the Hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanAgro Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I think of the HOtk as closest to real real world posistion like lord chancellor or the lord privy seal was in england during the Middle ages basically the kings mouth and enforcer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wynter Manderly Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 aside from what was said above, it depends on the Hands also.i mean, look at littlefinger, he's just a master of coins (he is adminstrative level) yet look at his "power".i guess the Hand's decisions are semi-final, unless you know the king, there's no one really you can appeal to.that's power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jandslegate Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 So far it's proven to have the power to yield an early demise. Tyrion is the only contemporary Hand that escapes KL alive. Robbert's statement seems to be the most truthful so far 'The King eats and The Hand...' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Glokta Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 So far it's proven to have the power to yield an early demise. Tyrion is the only contemporary Hand that escapes KL alive. Robbert's statement seems to be the most truthful so far 'The King eats and The Hand...'What about JonCon? He was hand for Aerys :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Nomad Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Well if the king can't hold court, then the hand speaks for the king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
explosivedog Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Well if the king can't hold court, then the hand speaks for the king.I was about to mention this, Ned clearly has a lot of power while Robert is off hunting, since he sits in the king's stead and dispenses the king's justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Quentin Cray Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 While it was a very big job under Robert, it would be lackies work under Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Okay, so the Hand of the King is meant to be the second most powerful man in the kingdoms, second only to the king.Does he actually have any real power though? Like his power seems to be only on an administrative level, implementing the King's wishes.Even the saying "What the King dreams, the Hand builds" has this connotation. What the Hand builds is subject to what the King desires. He has no real decision making capacity over the realm like the Lord Paramount does over his region. The Hand of the King has no real independence in decision making, like a Lord Paramount does over his region.I imagine someone like Jon Arryn or Tywin Lannister as Hands had much more power than would be traditional for the office of the Hand of the King because the Kings they served were either disinterested or incompetent.What my point is I guess, is when you have a competent King, like say Jahaerys (spelling?) I the Conciliator, what does the Hand of the King actually do? Imagine if Baelor Breakspear had become King, what would his hand have actually had to do?The Hand has all the powers his boss has, until and unless his boss decides to overrule him or fire him. He orders people (even mighty lords paramount) and armies around in king's name, he dispenses king's justice. Look how Bloodraven handled the Second Blackfyre Rebellion: he quickly raised an army beforehand, and freely dispensed harsh punishment to traitors afterwards. The king is the captain, the Hand is his executive officer, and it takes a particularly foolish captain (like Cersei) to undermine his XO and micromanage everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
explosivedog Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 While it was a very big job under Robert, it would be lackies work under Stannis.Davos has to do all the reading, that's pretty important... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Edmure Tully Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 Davos has to do all the reading, that's pretty important...Kind of odd that the semi-literate guy does that now I think of it. Suppose stannis is busy stanning and thinking up witty one liners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napyura Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 While it was a very big job under Robert, it would be lackies work under Stannis.Actually Davos and Stannis relationship is actually average and basic model of how hand and king should function in theory.Tywin Lannister/Bloodraven is extremity in which siezes power from King and does the actual work.Jon Arryn as Hand was also a good Hand but when King has a lot of power and commands a lot of respect, there not much you can do about his carelesness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSnow House Stark Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 To answer the question, the HOTK has basically all the power of the King. As long as the actions he takes are in line with what the King would want, then he can do anything he wants. How much power the HOTK wields is soley based on his capabilities and the Kings capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterKing Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 The Hand has as much power as the King decides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 The Hand has enough power to trust people who warn them not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doran Baratheon Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 From where I sit, the power of the Hand depends on how interested the King is in matters of governing (King Robert and Lord Hand Ned) or how much of a figurehead the King is (King Joffrey and Lord Hand Tywin)I would also think that from time-to-time, there would be a formal division of labor between the King and the Hand. We know Robert was at the battlefield when the Greyjoy Rebellion was being crushed but there's no mention of Jon Arryn. One assumes Jon Arryn was at KL hard at work to keep the Kingdom going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 The Hand is Deputy King, and Prime Minister rolled into one. How much power he has will depend on the personalities of the King and the Hand. Tywin was the true ruler of Westeros under Aerys. But, I doubt if Lord John Connington had that sort of authority.Stannis/Davos is probably the ideal. The King is the Chief Executive, but the Hand is able to give him unwelcome truths and persuade him to change his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolantero Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Normally, as much as the king allows him to have. Hands who were powerful were either powerful lords themselves or their kings gave/allowed them that power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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